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In need of help from experienced Japanese speaker

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Re: In need of help from experienced Japanese speaker

Postby Harisenbon » Sun 08.17.2008 11:47 pm

hommie93710 wrote:no your right i should learn hiragana first. I guess in the long run it makes more sence since you'll have to learn it anyways but ok what do you learn that KA,KI,KU,KE,KO or the japanese signs that go with them or both at the same time and do you remember KA..,SA..,TA..,NA..,HA..,MA..,YA..,RA..,WA..,O,N, and the other ones like G,Z,D,B,P did this confuse you? I jsut dont know where to start?


In my Japanese class in High School, we took 2 weeks to learn hiragana, and another 2 to learn katakana (I think. It was a while ago).
We learned them line by line, so first we would learn A,I,U,E,O. And then we would learn Ka Ki Ku Ke Ko. I made flash cards for myself to remember what the characters looked like, and in order to force my brain into the correct pronunciations of each, I would just walk around the house chanting them all under my breath, going " a i u e o ka ki ku ke ko sa shi su se so" and so on.

Doing that imprinted the pronunciations into my head so that I had a firm grasp of how each of the vowel sets worked, and that I wouldn't make pronunciations errors, or make up new pronunciations because I didn't know how the sylables were pronounces.
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Re: In need of help from experienced Japanese speaker

Postby Dustin » Mon 08.18.2008 12:01 am

hommie93710 wrote: no your right i should learn hiragana first. I guess in the long run it makes more sence since you'll have to learn it anyways but ok what do you learn that KA,KI,KU,KE,KO or the japanese signs that go with them or both at the same time and do you remember KA..,SA..,TA..,NA..,HA..,MA..,YA..,RA..,WA..,O,N, and the other ones like G,Z,D,B,P did this confuse you? I jsut dont know where to start?


for the most part, once you have a, i, u, e, o worked out phonetically, the rest of the line falls in place, sounding the same except for the "consonant" at the beginning.
This should take very little time to remember, and I recommend listening to audio for this.
There are a few exceptions with the consonant, but not many.
After that, for all the kana symbols, I found it was easiest to go in the order of a horizontal hiragana chart.

a i u e o
ka ki ku ke ko
sa shi su se so
ta chi tsu te to
na ni nu ne no
ha hi fu he ho
ma mi mu me mo
ya yu yo
ra ri ru re ro
wa wo
n

I romanized it to make it easier for you
When I decided to take on the Hiragana, I made flashcards of all of the above, and kept them in order at first.
I would do one row at a time, it's a lot easier to remember 5, than 46 :wink:
After I had the a row down, I did the ka row, and then did all 10 that I have already learnt to make sure I don't forget any of them.
Of course, next was the sa row, review all 15, ta row, review all 20 and so on.
Some people get super fast results this way, (some people can get it down in mere hours on a weekend then review nightly for a week or so) some people of course will take a bit longer, classes typicall spend about a month going, "a, i, u, e, o" but I feel it is the best way to go, little bite size chunks at a time. You will determine how quickly you learn based on your abilities, and time spent on the material, but don't get down if it seems to be taking longer than you thought.

As far as the ga, ba, pa sounds, they are easier to remember than the original hiragana.
は ば ぱ ha, ba, pa, as long as you can remember how to modify the sounds based on how they start, you'll be fine once you have the main series down.
Of course most kana materials will have this information included with it, but don't worry about it until you have the above sounds down, then it will be much easier to work on all the modified kana.
It gets more fun when you add kanji such as り and ゆ for りゅ as one sound. :mrgreen:

Of course once you have hiragana, there is katakana, which has the exact same sounds, but a different set of kana, and a few rules for slightly more flexible input of foreign words.
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Re: In need of help from experienced Japanese speaker

Postby hommie93710 » Mon 08.18.2008 12:43 am

Dustin_Calgary wrote:
hommie93710 wrote: no your right i should learn hiragana first. I guess in the long run it makes more sence since you'll have to learn it anyways but ok what do you learn that KA,KI,KU,KE,KO or the japanese signs that go with them or both at the same time and do you remember KA..,SA..,TA..,NA..,HA..,MA..,YA..,RA..,WA..,O,N, and the other ones like G,Z,D,B,P did this confuse you? I jsut dont know where to start?


for the most part, once you have a, i, u, e, o worked out phonetically, the rest of the line falls in place, sounding the same except for the "consonant" at the beginning.
This should take very little time to remember, and I recommend listening to audio for this.
There are a few exceptions with the consonant, but not many.
After that, for all the kana symbols, I found it was easiest to go in the order of a horizontal hiragana chart.

a i u e o
ka ki ku ke ko
sa shi su se so
ta chi tsu te to
na ni nu ne no
ha hi fu he ho
ma mi mu me mo
ya yu yo
ra ri ru re ro
wa wo
n

I romanized it to make it easier for you
When I decided to take on the Hiragana, I made flashcards of all of the above, and kept them in order at first.
I would do one row at a time, it's a lot easier to remember 5, than 46 :wink:
After I had the a row down, I did the ka row, and then did all 10 that I have already learnt to make sure I don't forget any of them.
Of course, next was the sa row, review all 15, ta row, review all 20 and so on.
Some people get super fast results this way, (some people can get it down in mere hours on a weekend then review nightly for a week or so) some people of course will take a bit longer, classes typicall spend about a month going, "a, i, u, e, o" but I feel it is the best way to go, little bite size chunks at a time. You will determine how quickly you learn based on your abilities, and time spent on the material, but don't get down if it seems to be taking longer than you thought.

As far as the ga, ba, pa sounds, they are easier to remember than the original hiragana.
は ば ぱ ha, ba, pa, as long as you can remember how to modify the sounds based on how they start, you'll be fine once you have the main series down.
Of course most kana materials will have this information included with it, but don't worry about it until you have the above sounds down, then it will be much easier to work on all the modified kana.
It gets more fun when you add kanji such as り and ゆ for りゅ as one sound. :mrgreen:

Of course once you have hiragana, there is katakana, which has the exact same sounds, but a different set of kana, and a few rules for slightly more flexible input of foreign words.


ok so after i learn hiragana i have to learn katakana why do i have to learn both because some people write in hiragana and others write in katakana or do you need both of them to write a whole sentence? TIMES LIKE THIS I WISH I HAD A PRINTER LOL
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Re: In need of help from experienced Japanese speaker

Postby Sairana » Mon 08.18.2008 12:52 am

hommie93710 wrote:ok so after i learn hiragana i have to learn katakana why do i have to learn both


For the same reason you need to know both captial and lowercase letters in English. They each have their uses. Any given sentence may or may not have katakana in it.
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Re: In need of help from experienced Japanese speaker

Postby hommie93710 » Mon 08.18.2008 12:53 am

Harisenbon wrote:
hommie93710 wrote:no your right i should learn hiragana first. I guess in the long run it makes more sence since you'll have to learn it anyways but ok what do you learn that KA,KI,KU,KE,KO or the japanese signs that go with them or both at the same time and do you remember KA..,SA..,TA..,NA..,HA..,MA..,YA..,RA..,WA..,O,N, and the other ones like G,Z,D,B,P did this confuse you? I jsut dont know where to start?


In my Japanese class in High School, we took 2 weeks to learn hiragana, and another 2 to learn katakana (I think. It was a while ago).
We learned them line by line, so first we would learn A,I,U,E,O. And then we would learn Ka Ki Ku Ke Ko. I made flash cards for myself to remember what the characters looked like, and in order to force my brain into the correct pronunciations of each, I would just walk around the house chanting them all under my breath, going " a i u e o ka ki ku ke ko sa shi su se so" and so on.

Doing that imprinted the pronunciations into my head so that I had a firm grasp of how each of the vowel sets worked, and that I wouldn't make pronunciations errors, or make up new pronunciations because I didn't know how the sylables were pronounces.


It took you 2 weeks to learn to write hiragana and katakana and the alphabet by memory?
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Re: In need of help from experienced Japanese speaker

Postby hommie93710 » Mon 08.18.2008 12:55 am

Sairana wrote:
hommie93710 wrote:ok so after i learn hiragana i have to learn katakana why do i have to learn both


For the same reason you need to know both captial and lowercase letters in English. They each have their uses. Any given sentence may or may not have katakana in it.


oh wow that makes alot of sence it just i think it's gonna be hard to memories it when some of them are just lines floating in the air I just think it will get confusing
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Re: In need of help from experienced Japanese speaker

Postby Harisenbon » Mon 08.18.2008 1:09 am

hommie93710 wrote:It took you 2 weeks to learn to write hiragana and katakana and the alphabet by memory?


I think it was two week for each, but I really don't remember. That was over 15 years ago.
And that isn't to say I never made mistakes after I learned them. But I was able to use the characters (slowly) after about 2 weeks.

Think about it this way. There are only 92 kana in both hiragana and katakana (not counting the chon and maru variants). You will have to know many thousands of words before you can be considered to be proficient in Japanese. Spending the small amount of time to learn the kana now is important to your continued Japanese study, will provide a good basis for further study, and takes a minuscule amount of time compared to the rest of your Japanese studies.

I can't remember what you posted in your original post, but do you have a textbook?
I think following the pace of learning presented in any textbook would solve a lot of your problems and give you some more structured and sure-fire ways to learn your kana and progress in your Japanese studies.

A friend of mine picked up "Japanese for Busy People (kana edition)" and after 3 months was able to test into an intermediate level class at college. I think that sometime like that might benefit you.
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Re: In need of help from experienced Japanese speaker

Postby hommie93710 » Mon 08.18.2008 1:31 am

Harisenbon wrote:
hommie93710 wrote:It took you 2 weeks to learn to write hiragana and katakana and the alphabet by memory?


I think it was two week for each, but I really don't remember. That was over 15 years ago.
And that isn't to say I never made mistakes after I learned them. But I was able to use the characters (slowly) after about 2 weeks.

Think about it this way. There are only 92 kana in both hiragana and katakana (not counting the chon and maru variants). You will have to know many thousands of words before you can be considered to be proficient in Japanese. Spending the small amount of time to learn the kana now is important to your continued Japanese study, will provide a good basis for further study, and takes a minuscule amount of time compared to the rest of your Japanese studies.

I can't remember what you posted in your original post, but do you have a textbook?
I think following the pace of learning presented in any textbook would solve a lot of your problems and give you some more structured and sure-fire ways to learn your kana and progress in your Japanese studies.

A friend of mine picked up "Japanese for Busy People (kana edition)" and after 3 months was able to test into an intermediate level class at college. I think that sometime like that might benefit you.


No, i dont have a textbook but i was thinking of going to the library and picking one up though. Hopefully they have the one you said because i looked it up online and it looked like exactly what i needed and your right i probably need structure cause i'm a bit confused on all the next steps so thanks for the info
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Re: In need of help from experienced Japanese speaker

Postby Dustin » Mon 08.18.2008 2:21 am

Hiragana is basically used for all the grammar pieces used in the Japanese language, as well as spelling out words that you do not know the kanji for yet ( As you get more proficient in Japanese, Kanji makes it MUCH easier and quicker to skim sentences and get the idea of what it is about, and easily seperate words with the grammar pieces. )
Dictionaries will spell out phonetic items in hiragana, referring to it typically as furigana, this is the same as when you see an unknown kanji, sometimes there will be furigana above it.

Katakana, is used for Japanese loan words, these are words that the Japanese have borrowed from other languages, quite often English and use in their language. Examples of these include the radio, stereo, and tv that I listed earlier in the thread.
For historical purposes these words are written in katakana. Sometimes Katakana can also be used almost like italics to make certain words pop out, this is more popular in advertising pieces, manga comics, as well as for sound effect words ( onomatopoeia ).

That is why you need both Hiragana and Katakana.

Yes a textbook would be great to give you direction in your studies, as well as have a lot of the information we've told you on this topic. If your library does not have one that suits your needs, you can typically find something quite affordable online, most of my materials are purchased from thejapanshop.com which actually helps to pay for this site :D

Genki is a popular series, however it can be pricey to get all the materials for it.
Japanese for Everyone is the book I am currently working on, and it only ran $19 plus shipping. Not too bad for the amount of material it covers :D
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Re: In need of help from experienced Japanese speaker

Postby hommie93710 » Mon 08.18.2008 2:26 am

Harisenbon wrote:
hommie93710 wrote:It took you 2 weeks to learn to write hiragana and katakana and the alphabet by memory?


I think it was two week for each, but I really don't remember. That was over 15 years ago.
And that isn't to say I never made mistakes after I learned them. But I was able to use the characters (slowly) after about 2 weeks.

Think about it this way. There are only 92 kana in both hiragana and katakana (not counting the chon and maru variants). You will have to know many thousands of words before you can be considered to be proficient in Japanese. Spending the small amount of time to learn the kana now is important to your continued Japanese study, will provide a good basis for further study, and takes a minuscule amount of time compared to the rest of your Japanese studies.

I can't remember what you posted in your original post, but do you have a textbook?
I think following the pace of learning presented in any textbook would solve a lot of your problems and give you some more structured and sure-fire ways to learn your kana and progress in your Japanese studies.

A friend of mine picked up "Japanese for Busy People (kana edition)" and after 3 months was able to test into an intermediate level class at college. I think that sometime like that might benefit you.


instead i just bought it off ebay right now that book you requested so hopefully it will work as good as it did for your friend arigato :)
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Re: In need of help from experienced Japanese speaker

Postby hommie93710 » Mon 08.18.2008 2:36 am

ok wow so i guess i understand i can picture it in my head when you say advertisments i've seen katakana used so i guess they are both relavent in learning japanese like you said. But what is this fugi thing you were talking about in the dictonary part whats that? Something beween both the katakana and hiragana?
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Re: In need of help from experienced Japanese speaker

Postby Dustin » Mon 08.18.2008 2:46 am

Furigana is typically Hiragana, they call it furigana when they shrink it down and throw it over top of kanji in case you don't know it, which they typically do in comics or textbooks, or childrens books.
All furigana means, is basically hiragana when it is used as a pronounciation aid.

In dictionaries i sometimes see it referred to as furigana, where they can use hiragana or katakana to distinguish between on and kun readings of kanji.

Don't worry about furigana, it's not some other thing to worry about, it's just an aid so that unknown kanji can be understood in certain books.


わたし


Would be an example, if either the kanji was bigger, or the hiragana was smaller, because that kanji is pronounced wa-ta-shi meaning me or I

edit: here is a link to wikipedia explaining it a little better http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furigana
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Re: In need of help from experienced Japanese speaker

Postby Majik4ever » Mon 08.18.2008 10:07 am

Hello hommie93710!

I'm glad you found my site helpful.

About the vowels, I fully plan to add a section on the lessons page, but after seeing your post, it sound like I need to hurry up and get back to work...lol.
I have been working on a few other projects like videos, a sound chart, ect. so I'll put it up this somtime this week when I get it up. :mrgreen: (Just check my blog/group posts for updates.)

The vowel blend are pretty easy:

Let's take the Japanese word 'ao' for example. Ao is pronounced 'ah-oh' almost like 'ow' but with a destinct 'ah' sound at the beginning.
Here is the word ao being said: http://japanese.about.com/library/media/audio/ao.wav

ai is like eye but more like aye as in "aye, aye captain!"
mae sort of sounds like 'my-eh?'
ue is 'you eh' without the 'y' sound
koi is pronounced Coy
koe is sort of pronounced like "Ko-eh"

There's a few more but I'll cover them in the lesson.
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Re: In need of help from experienced Japanese speaker

Postby hommie93710 » Mon 08.18.2008 11:55 am

Majik4ever wrote:Hello hommie93710!

I'm glad you found my site helpful.

About the vowels, I fully plan to add a section on the lessons page, but after seeing your post, it sound like I need to hurry up and get back to work...lol.
I have been working on a few other projects like videos, a sound chart, ect. so I'll put it up this somtime this week when I get it up. :mrgreen: (Just check my blog/group posts for updates.)

The vowel blend are pretty easy:

Let's take the Japanese word 'ao' for example. Ao is pronounced 'ah-oh' almost like 'ow' but with a destinct 'ah' sound at the beginning.
Here is the word ao being said: http://japanese.about.com/library/media/audio/ao.wav

ai is like eye but more like aye as in "aye, aye captain!"
mae sort of sounds like 'my-eh?'
ue is 'you eh' without the 'y' sound
koi is pronounced Coy
koe is sort of pronounced like "Ko-eh"

There's a few more but I'll cover them in the lesson.

I keep coming back to your page because of all the information you have on there it's helped me out alot thanks for putting it up
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