what JLPT level do you have to pass to go to school in Japan

[paul_b]

Justin wrote:
If you find that you don't like what Mike has to say, rather than just adding more fuel to the flames with trucker comments and other random assumption, let's just all drop it, and for the sake of the forum, let's move on.

Wooo! +10 maturity points to Justin!

(First person to get to 100 wins a mystery prize!!!1! XD

[Scavengist]

This has got to be, by far, the most immature thread in the galaxy. xD

[edit: apparently paul_b had the same impression as we posted at the same time.]

[Mike Cash]

Dehitay wrote:

Mike Cash wrote:
I have no respect for people who apologize on the internet.

It would be a hilariously poetic twist of fate if you got shoved into an online business meeting (for truckers?) and made a mistake. I'm not entirely sure where this philosophy of yours comes from. Do you think the people you're talking to aren't real? Is it the lack of sight, lack of voice, or the mixture of both? But even if it was that, you wouldn't expect people to apologize for mistakes in magazines and newspapers (which you very well might not). Or is it the ever more likely possibility that after dealing with people in real life, you use the internet to escape from a world of politeness and indulge yourself with brash phrasing?

Swing and a miss for Dehitay.

When one makes a simple mistake of fact, all that one needs to do is acknowledge the error and make a correction. No ill intent = no need to apologize.

I know full well the people I am talking to are real. And in real life I either exercise tact by keeping my mouth shut or I say what the hell I think in plain terms. I've caused a bit of shock at work by doing that, with people looking at me wide-eyed and saying, "You can't say that!" As long as I've been frank and accurate, I've never had any problem with it from the higher-ups....especially because, like Donnie Baker, I say it right to their faces.

I just believe that, in most circumstances, one can't apologize on the internet without insulting one's own intelligence or integrity, and sometimes the other party's intelligence into the bargain.

For example:

A person says something mean or insulting in a post. There are two possibilities: 1) the person doesn't realize it is mean or insulting or 2) the person does realize it is mean or insulting.

In the case of 1. The person lacks the forethought, intelligence, or maturity to post.
In the case of 2. To say it while relying on the ability to "take it back" via an apology if taken to task for it belies a lack of personal integrity.

Before a person hits "Post", they damned well ought to be aware of what they're saying and be willing to stand behind both the content and the tone, in other words.

Apologies should be reserved for rare occasions. People often talk about "I love you" becoming diluted to the point of meaninglessness. I take the same approach about "I'm sorry".

Panda child did nothing to apologize for, and there was no need for an apology or the acceptance of one.

[Dehitay]

oh, you confused me when you phrased your belief as 'apologizing on the internet isn't respectful'. If you just find apologizing to be rarely needed in life as well, it's hard to understand from that. But even with the explanation you gave, I don't understand why you wouldn't apologize online unless you never apologize at all. All of that applies whether you're online or talking to some one in person.

[Mike Cash]

I didn't say apologizing on the internet isn't respectful. I said I don't respect people who apologize on the internet.

I believe in realizing the ramifications of what one is saying prior to hitting "Post" and being prepared to stand behind what has been said, or in having the intelligence and self-restraint to merely think it without posting it. In either case, apologies are neither necessary nor appropriate.

In real life, 100% of my non-family interactions are in Japanese, so like everybody else I go through the pseudo-apologies that grease the skids of Japanese interaction. In real life back in the US, I took pretty much the same policy as I do for online now. Either bite my tongue or speak out and stand behind it. It sort of goes along with my policy of putting my name on my posts.

I'm not idiot enough to think that I'm converting anyone to my way of thinking on this. And I don't expect people to quit apologizing left and right. I've merely tried to explain my thinking on the matter and to let people know that should they ever feel the need to apologize for some remark they made to me online, they may suppress the urge and I won't think any less of them for having done so. To the contrary, I'll think more highly of them for having said what they thought and having stuck with it.

[Dehitay]

Nothing about your way of thinking is actually wrong. It's just I'm curious about some of the policies that don't follow my own logic. Do you have more forgiveness for people who speak without thinking than people who post without thinking? I personally group them together. The only real difference I see between online and in person conversations is that online, people have the ability to hide themselves from the people they're talking to. I think the same mistakes people make when talking or posting are relatively the same, so I wouldn't treat them different myself.

[mamba]

Sooo back to the topic. My best advice is to listen to Mike's advice. Your question was too general, therefore the answer has to be general. Like someone said, if you stated what school, maybe you could have gotten a more specific answer.

[Mike Cash]

Dehitay wrote:
Nothing about your way of thinking is actually wrong. It's just I'm curious about some of the policies that don't follow my own logic. Do you have more forgiveness for people who speak without thinking than people who post without thinking? I personally group them together. The only real difference I see between online and in person conversations is that online, people have the ability to hide themselves from the people they're talking to. I think the same mistakes people make when talking or posting are relatively the same, so I wouldn't treat them different myself.

The difference between online and in person is that online we have a greater opportunity to compose our thoughts, review what we've written, and ask ourselves if that's really what we want to put out there prior to hitting "Post". The fast pace and fleeting nature of chat rooms are different, of course. I think too many people post to forums in the same way that they chat in chat rooms.

[caroline]

Well, this turned out as a very interestind thread indeed.
1) answers are more often than not not as univoque or simple as the question asker would like. And not just on this thread. And Mike's answer was obviously the right one.
2) the deontology of posting - and apologizing - may vary according to age, culture, education, and personal belief. There was food for thought (and I haven't finished the digestion yet)
3) Though it was not in question here, there might be a sound reason for apologizing, which is to have written - and checked - something that doesn't reflect what was intented, and this can happen on a forum where english is not the native language of a larger number of posters. And I would not put that in Mike's 1st category, neither in the "factual mistake". But this opinion is just because it could happen to me, obviously, to misuse English! But then, should I be totally prevented to post as I might say something inappropriate in English? I'd rather not...

[RanRane]

Do you not think that this has got a little out of hand?

[Mike Cash]

Certainly it has gotten out of hand. Welcome to TJP.

[Mike Cash]

caroline wrote:
3) Though it was not in question here, there might be a sound reason for apologizing, which is to have written - and checked - something that doesn't reflect what was intented, and this can happen on a forum where english is not the native language of a larger number of posters. And I would not put that in Mike's 1st category, neither in the "factual mistake". But this opinion is just because it could happen to me, obviously, to misuse English! But then, should I be totally prevented to post as I might say something inappropriate in English? I'd rather not...

Of course you shouldn't be prevented from posting on those grounds. But if a non-native speaker inadvertently says something that is misinterpreted, there is no need to apologize for having done so. Merely mentioning, "Oh, I thought it meant xxxxx" or "I didn't know it had that meaning/nuance" is sufficient. And perhaps thanking the other person if the correction was done politely and included an explanation of the error.

[Matsumoto_hideto]

Mike Cash wrote:
I didn't say apologizing on the internet isn't respectful. I said I don't respect people who apologize on the internet.

I believe in realizing the ramifications of what one is saying prior to hitting "Post" and being prepared to stand behind what has been said, or in having the intelligence and self-restraint to merely think it without posting it. In either case, apologies are neither necessary nor appropriate.

In real life, 100% of my non-family interactions are in Japanese, so like everybody else I go through the pseudo-apologies that grease the skids of Japanese interaction. In real life back in the US, I took pretty much the same policy as I do for online now. Either bite my tongue or speak out and stand behind it. It sort of goes along with my policy of putting my name on my posts.

I'm not idiot enough to think that I'm converting anyone to my way of thinking on this. And I don't expect people to quit apologizing left and right. I've merely tried to explain my thinking on the matter and to let people know that should they ever feel the need to apologize for some remark they made to me online, they may suppress the urge and I won't think any less of them for having done so. To the contrary, I'll think more highly of them for having said what they thought and having stuck with it.

does it ever end?

[Mike Cash]

You needed to quote all that in order to add four words?

You're not exactly helping the s/n ratio yourself, kiddo.

[two_heads_talking]

Matsumoto_hideto wrote:


does it ever end?

does what ever end? what's the point of your post?