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What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby richvh » Mon 01.12.2009 1:52 pm

I asked about that sentence on lang-8, and got this reply from a native speaker:
I think "the act of printing and public release" is in Japanese "印刷と世に出すこと".

and "the act of releasing something that was printed to the world/public" is in Japanese "印刷されたものを世に出すこと".

So, I think following sentence is better.
"the act of printing something and releasing it to the world/public".

”こと”は”世に出す”にだけかかっていて、"印刷"にはかかっていないと思います。
”印刷して世に出すこと”は、「何かを印刷して、その後それを世に出すこと」、だと思います。
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby NocturnalOcean » Mon 01.12.2009 2:03 pm

Christine Tham wrote:
Isn't this a bit childish? What sort of "proof" do you need?



I didn't mean it to be childish, I just wanted a more founded definition from you, not just something you had learned from a teacher somewhere.

But after reading Richvh's post, I guess it seems you are correct.
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Christine Tham » Mon 01.12.2009 2:17 pm

richvh wrote:I asked about that sentence on lang-8, and got this reply from a native speaker:
I think "the act of printing and public release" is in Japanese "印刷と世に出すこと".

and "the act of releasing something that was printed to the world/public" is in Japanese "印刷されたものを世に出すこと".

So, I think following sentence is better.
"the act of printing something and releasing it to the world/public".

”こと”は”世に出す”にだけかかっていて、"印刷"にはかかっていないと思います。
”印刷して世に出すこと”は、「何かを印刷して、その後それを世に出すこと」、だと思います。


Thanks very much, Richard, for taking the trouble.

I am not sure I would agree with "the act of printing something and releasing it to the world/public".

After some thought, I would like to offer "having printed something, the act of releasing it to the world/public" which woud encompass both the notion that the word's primary meaning is publication/issue, but the definition specifically seems to be dealing with a "print publication" (which I think is an unnecessary restriction, given the other definitions, but never mind).
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Christine Tham » Mon 01.12.2009 2:33 pm

NocturnalOcean wrote:
Christine Tham wrote:
Isn't this a bit childish? What sort of "proof" do you need?



I didn't mean it to be childish, I just wanted a more founded definition from you, not just something you had learned from a teacher somewhere.

But after reading Richvh's post, I guess it seems you are correct.


I guess what I was really pointing out was that the proof was always there in front of you, if you applied common sense. You didn't really need me (or anyone else) to point it out to you.

If you actually read what you quoted from that grammar dictionary, it was completely consistent with what I was saying (except I only bothered to list two relationships instead of 4). But common sense says that in this situation only the sequential action relationship makes sense, and an event cannot be applied to two sequential actions.
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby yukamina » Mon 01.12.2009 2:38 pm

This really is getting ridiculous. I'm learning Japanese, the modern language as it is used today. It doesn't matter if 旅行 was originally a Chinese word, or that the Japanese came up with 科学 originally, or if the numbers used to mean something else ages ago. It doesn't matter if 漢語 are a supposed minority; I still need a ton of them to read a novel. The meaning of 過 and 剰 help me remember the meaning of 過剰, which is a word used in the Japanese language. If that doesn't work for you, then fine.
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Christine Tham » Mon 01.12.2009 2:46 pm

yukamina wrote:This really is getting ridiculous.


You mean, about as ridiculous as, say, using a biased sample of words from another language to prove an (incorrect) assertion about a different language? :-)
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby NocturnalOcean » Mon 01.12.2009 3:06 pm

Christine Tham wrote:
NocturnalOcean wrote:
Christine Tham wrote:
Isn't this a bit childish? What sort of "proof" do you need?



I didn't mean it to be childish, I just wanted a more founded definition from you, not just something you had learned from a teacher somewhere.

But after reading Richvh's post, I guess it seems you are correct.


I guess what I was really pointing out was that the proof was always there in front of you, if you applied common sense. You didn't really need me (or anyone else) to point it out to you.

If you actually read what you quoted from that grammar dictionary, it was completely consistent with what I was saying (except I only bothered to list two relationships instead of 4). But common sense says that in this situation only the sequential action relationship makes sense, and an event cannot be applied to two sequential actions.


I meant the definition of こと. I can't remember reading anywhere that is was only possible to modify the immediate preceding sentence, and that a te-form would not be included. But I see that it will be useful to bring into further studies.

What I really don't understand though is, if we look at the above example, if こと is used in definitions to define a word, then in our example, why not just say "世に出すこと" and not bring in other factors such as printing?

If we look at another deiniftion of 発行
証明書・証券・貨幣などを作って世の中に通用させること。

So in this definition こと only applies to 世の中に通用させること。 And not the fact of making the coins, certificates or whatever is included in 発行。

It might just be that I am not native English speakers, and I don't quite get all the terminology correct, but it still looks really weird to me.
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 01.12.2009 3:20 pm

NocturnalOcean wrote:But after reading Richvh's post, I guess it seems you are correct.


I rarely do this, but I'm not sure I agree with the native speakers; I have the same doubts as NocturnalOcean.

I've posted a followup to check to make sure, but if the idea is that こと *cannot* apply to two phrases linked with a て form, I don't think this is correct (even if in this specific case it does not). If you look at the example sentences on alc, you can see a number of examples where the こと is applying to a compound phrase with a て form in it, for instance:

10月19日、ニューヨークのマジシャン、デビッド・ブレインが箱の中で絶食して44日間過ごすことに成功しました。
On October 19th, New York magician David Blaine successfully completed 44 days in a box without eating
(In this case the two actions are not strictly sequential)

勇気というのは立ち上がって話すことであり座って聞くことでもある。
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak, courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

"Event" is a fairly narrow definition for こと; it often also refers to abstract concepts, as in dictionary definitions or cases like this.
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Christine Tham » Mon 01.12.2009 3:25 pm

NocturnalOcean wrote:I meant the definition of こと. I can't remember reading anywhere that is was only possible to modify the immediate preceding sentence, and that a te-form would not be included. But I see that it will be useful to bring into further studies.


You didn't need to read it anywhere, you just need to apply common sense. Most of the time, understanding sentences in any language is basically applying common sense.

As I've pointed out, there are situations where the こと can extend to include the phrase before the て, so this is not a hard and fast "rule." It's just that by common sense, it doesn't apply here.

NocturnalOcean wrote:What I really don't understand though is, if we look at the above example, if こと is used in definitions to define a word, then in our example, why not just say "世に出すこと" and not bring in other factors such as printing?


That's been my point all along. Strictly speaking, the 印刷して wasn't really necessary, since the other definitions make it clear it's not the "printing" aspect that is important, it was the "publication."

My only explanation would be at one stage, the word only applied to publishing printed material and not anything else.

However, over time, the usage broadened to include things like coins, and mailing forms etc. so the "printing" aspect wasn't as important.

Remember, 広辞苑 tends to list earliest usage first, followed by subsequent additional usage. In this way, someone reading the dictionary can see how the word has evolved. :-)
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 01.12.2009 3:31 pm

Christine Tham wrote:Strictly speaking, the 印刷して wasn't really necessary, since the other definitions make it clear it's not the "printing" aspect that is important, it was the "publication."


But 世に出す alone doesn't mean "publish". It only means "publish" when you take it in context with the 印刷して from before.
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby NocturnalOcean » Mon 01.12.2009 3:35 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
Christine Tham wrote:Strictly speaking, the 印刷して wasn't really necessary, since the other definitions make it clear it's not the "printing" aspect that is important, it was the "publication."


But 世に出す alone doesn't mean "publish". It only means "publish" when you take it in context with the 印刷して from before.


Yeah, this is what I feel too. It has to be seen in the context of this. That's why there are several definitions of the word, not only 世に出す. So I still have to put myself as uncertain on this.
Last edited by NocturnalOcean on Mon 01.12.2009 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby richvh » Mon 01.12.2009 3:36 pm

大辞線 uses the definition:

書物を世に出す。
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Christine Tham » Mon 01.12.2009 3:37 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:10月19日、ニューヨークのマジシャン、デビッド・ブレインが箱の中で絶食して44日間過ごすことに成功しました。
On October 19th, New York magician David Blaine successfully completed 44 days in a box without eating
(In this case the two actions are not strictly sequential)

勇気というのは立ち上がって話すことであり座って聞くことでもある。
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak, courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.


The two sentences are fairly self explanatory.

In the first, as you've pointed out, the two actions are not sequential. There are also inter-dependent, it does not make sense to apply こと to one without it also applying to the other.

However, to be really pedantic, I would argue that the こと actually applies to 44日間過ごす, the 絶食して is the "explanation" for why this achievement would be newsworthy. Put it this way, if you reversed the two phrases, it makes less sense.

In the second one, did you notice there are in fact two こと in the sentence?
Last edited by Christine Tham on Mon 01.12.2009 3:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Christine Tham » Mon 01.12.2009 3:46 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
Christine Tham wrote:Strictly speaking, the 印刷して wasn't really necessary, since the other definitions make it clear it's not the "printing" aspect that is important, it was the "publication."


But 世に出す alone doesn't mean "publish". It only means "publish" when you take it in context with the 印刷して from before.


What I originally said was "the こと here does not refer to 印刷する, but refers to the release or the issue of the output (出すこと) of the printing to the world at large (世), hence the reference to 発行 (publication) and 単行本 (publishing in one volume)."

And I've also mentioned 世に出す can also be used to refer to the release of a film or CD etc.
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Christine Tham » Mon 01.12.2009 3:50 pm

richvh wrote:大辞線 uses the definition:

書物を世に出す。


Interesting, because this would imply the word can only be used to describe the publication of books only. I think this definition is too narrow, particular since we can have sentences like:

注文書の発行から30日以内に製品を納品します。
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