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What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby richvh » Mon 01.12.2009 4:09 pm

Subsequent to Chris' comment, my thread on lang-8 got this comment (which is somewhat revised from a previous, now deleted comment that did not have the parentheses around から):

はじめまして少し例を変えて考えてみました。
Mother left a to do list for children.

手を洗って(から)おやつを食べること
家具を動かして(から)バキュームすること
歯を磨いて(から)寝ること
印刷して(から)世に出すこと

こうして見るとこのことは両方の文を含むと私は思います。
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby yukamina » Mon 01.12.2009 4:43 pm

Christine Tham wrote:
yukamina wrote:This really is getting ridiculous.


You mean, about as ridiculous as, say, using a biased sample of words from another language to prove an (incorrect) assertion about a different language? :-)

Only one of the words from my second example was "漢語". I don't know what you find unacceptable about the list.
And I can't wrap my head around you saying that they are not Japanese words.
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby two_heads_talking » Mon 01.12.2009 5:06 pm

yukamina wrote:
Christine Tham wrote:
yukamina wrote:This really is getting ridiculous.


You mean, about as ridiculous as, say, using a biased sample of words from another language to prove an (incorrect) assertion about a different language? :-)

Only one of the words from my second example was "漢語". I don't know what you find unacceptable about the list.
And I can't wrap my head around you saying that they are not Japanese words.


Perhaps they just like to argue.. It's become a common theme for that one..
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Christine Tham » Wed 01.14.2009 12:52 am

richvh wrote:Subsequent to Chris' comment, my thread on lang-8 got this comment (which is somewhat revised from a previous, now deleted comment that did not have the parentheses around から):

はじめまして少し例を変えて考えてみました。
Mother left a to do list for children.

手を洗って(から)おやつを食べること
家具を動かして(から)バキュームすること
歯を磨いて(から)寝ること
印刷して(から)世に出すこと

こうして見るとこのことは両方の文を含むと私は思います。


This example seems a bit stretched (I don't believe a mother would actually leave a list like that, which not break apart to actions (the parts before and after the から) and list them individually?) And why put こと at the end? Why not just say 手を洗って(から)おやつを食べる (or if you want, add a なさい at the end, or change it to a てform request)?

I think a better way is to consider the well known grammatical pattern ~ことができる (can do ~).

If I say AてBことができる, am I really saying I have the ability to perform A, then B in sequence? Unlikely.

A far more natural interpretation is "After doing A, I can do B" or "Due to A, I can do B"
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Christine Tham » Wed 01.14.2009 1:13 am

yukamina wrote:Only one of the words from my second example was "漢語". I don't know what you find unacceptable about the list.
And I can't wrap my head around you saying that they are not Japanese words.


You are right, that was mean and uncalled for on my part. I really should have deleted that post. Please accept my humble apologies.

I seem to recall you have been studying Japanese for a long time. Maybe longer than me. I recall your posts when I was just a newbie (just started studying). Why don't we both put our study to good use and converse in Japanese?

I'll start:

ユカミナさんへ、

本当に悪い返事は申し訳ありません。

ユカミナさんの日本語の勉強するのは、長い間かもしれません。それで、上手になるでしょうね。色々な漢字を習って、よく覚えているでしょう。私は、まだへたと思いますので、この歌は英訳していただけませんか。有名な歌のようです。漢字だけですから、私は全然わかりません。
「以呂波耳本へ止
千利奴流乎和加
餘多連曽津祢那
良牟有為能於久
耶万計不己衣天
阿佐伎喩女美之
恵比毛勢須 」
お願いします!がんばってくださいね。
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby yukamina » Wed 01.14.2009 2:35 pm

Christine Tham wrote:「以呂波耳本へ止
千利奴流乎和加
餘多連曽津祢那
良牟有為能於久
耶万計不己衣天
阿佐伎喩女美之
恵比毛勢須 」

これはやっぱり読めません。どう見ても、日本語には見えません。私は小説を読むために日本語を勉強しています。会話とか文法の細かいところとか上手くできません。練習していないことは上達できませんからね。今、簡単な小説なら、読めるけど、習わなければならないことはまだまだあります。
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 01.14.2009 3:33 pm

それはちょっと意地悪かもしれません。「いろは歌」という歌で、その漢字の全部は音声だけで使っています。しかも古語。例えば、「以呂波耳本へ止 」は「色は匂えど」。

Christineさんは本当に英訳が欲しかったら、wikipediaなどで見つけるはずなんですけど。
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroha
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby yukamina » Wed 01.14.2009 4:02 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:それはちょっと意地悪かもしれません。「いろは歌」という歌で、その漢字の全部は音声だけで使っています。しかも古語。例えば、「以呂波耳本へ止 」は「色は匂えど」。


その気がしました...どんな読み方を使っても、言葉は出ませんでした ^_^; えへへ
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Christine Tham » Wed 01.14.2009 7:59 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:しかも古語。


でも、万葉仮名の言葉、今まだ使っているでしょう。九州で。それで、古語じゃないと思います。「いろは歌」は今日本でいろいろな使い方がありますので、勉強しったらほうがいいかもしれませんね。
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby NocturnalOcean » Wed 01.14.2009 8:04 pm

Christine Tham wrote:
Yudan Taiteki wrote:しかも古語。


でも、万葉仮名の言葉、今まだ使っているでしょう。九州で。それで、古語じゃないと思います。「いろは歌」は今日本でいろいろな使い方がありますので、勉強しったらほうがいいかもしれませんね。


It is definitly classical Japanese. Studying this will be of no use in my opinion. Unless you are interested in poems and classical Japanese that is.
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Christine Tham » Wed 01.14.2009 8:08 pm

yukamina wrote:これはやっぱり読めません。どう見ても、日本語には見えません。私は小説を読むために日本語を勉強しています。会話とか文法の細かいところとか上手くできません。練習していないことは上達できませんからね。今、簡単な小説なら、読めるけど、習わなければならないことはまだまだあります。


こんな歌、私も全然読めません。一所懸命なのに。でも、おもしろいわね。

ユカミナさんの日本語の勉強するのは、がんばってください。もうすぐ色々な小説が読めると思います。
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Christine Tham » Wed 01.14.2009 8:19 pm

NocturnalOcean wrote:
Christine Tham wrote:
Yudan Taiteki wrote:しかも古語。


でも、万葉仮名の言葉、今まだ使っているでしょう。九州で。それで、古語じゃないと思います。「いろは歌」は今日本でいろいろな使い方がありますので、勉強しったらほうがいいかもしれませんね。


It is definitly classical Japanese. Studying this will be of no use in my opinion. Unless you are interested in poems and classical Japanese that is.


From the wikipedia entry (link graciously provided by Yudan earlier): "The iroha is still occasionally encountered in modern Japan." And then gives examples.

Besides, I *am* interested in poems.
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby NocturnalOcean » Wed 01.14.2009 8:24 pm

Christine Tham wrote:
From the wikipedia entry (link graciously provided by Yudan earlier): "The iroha is still occasionally encountered in modern Japan." And then gives examples.

Besides, I *am* interested in poems.


I am not saying it isn't nice knowing, or that you shouldn't study it. I just wanted to correct your post were you said you didn't think it was classical Japanese.
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 01.14.2009 8:58 pm

Christine Tham wrote:
Yudan Taiteki wrote:しかも古語。


でも、万葉仮名の言葉、今まだ使っているでしょう。九州で。


現代は万葉仮名は非常に珍しいです。今は殆ど地名で使っています(奈良など)。当て字や万葉仮名は戦後から頻度が少なくなってきました。万葉仮名は平安時代でも読められなかったんです。

それで、古語じゃないと思います。「いろは歌」は今日本でいろいろな使い方がありますので、勉強しったらほうがいいかもしれませんね。


いろは歌は11世紀からの歌だから古語に違いません。例えば、最初の「色は匂へど」の「匂へど」は現代語で「匂いがするけど」の意味です。

"The iroha is still occasionally encountered in modern Japan."


その使い方は歌の意味じゃなくて、かなの順番だけです。順番でも、現代はほとんどいろはじゃなくて「あいうえお」を使っています。「いろはにほへと」を分かれば大丈夫だと思います。(分からなくても大丈夫だと思うけど...)

私の専門は古語なのに、万葉仮名もいろは歌も見えません。
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Christine Tham » Wed 01.14.2009 9:03 pm

NocturnalOcean wrote:I am not saying it isn't nice knowing, or that you shouldn't study it. I just wanted to correct your post were you said you didn't think it was classical Japanese.


You misunderstood my post. When I said 古語じゃない I was referring to 万葉仮名の言葉, which was the topic introduced earlier. I introduced a new topic 「いろは歌」 *after* this sentence, so obviously my comment does not refer to the new topic.
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