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What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Christine Tham » Wed 01.14.2009 9:17 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:私の専門は古語なのに、万葉仮名もいろは歌も見えません。


Well, good luck in your studies.

Since in your replies it is clear you have misunderstood what I was saying, there is no point in me replying in Japanese. Especially since you can't even parse or translate Japanese sentences correctly.

I was going to reply in English, but I wasn't sure you would understand that either, since earlier you didn't even intepret my posts in English correctly. Let's agree to disagree.

I do hope that you will eventually gain proficiency in Japanese.

PS - by the way, I am not sure your usage of 見えません here is correct. Do you mean 見たことがありません, or 見ることができません, or 見られません? Because 見えません implies something is preventing you from the ability to see (it could be your skill in Japanese, I guess).
Last edited by Christine Tham on Wed 01.14.2009 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby NocturnalOcean » Wed 01.14.2009 9:41 pm

Christine Tham wrote:
Yudan Taiteki wrote:私の専門は古語なのに、万葉仮名もいろは歌も見えません。


Well, good luck in your studies.

Since in your replies it is clear you have misunderstood what I was saying, there is no point in me replying in Japanese. Especially since you can't even parse or translate Japanese sentences correctly.

I was going to reply in English, but I wasn't sure you would understand that either, since earlier you didn't even intepret my posts in English correctly. Let's agree to disagree.

I do hope that you will eventually gain proficiency in Japanese.


It's quite disturbing to hear this from a person whose Japanese is quite full of errors.
You must be pretty full of yourself.
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 01.14.2009 9:48 pm

Christine Tham wrote: I do hope that you will eventually gain proficiency in Japanese.


That's one of my main goals.

具体的に万葉仮名は現代にどう使うと思いますか。
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Christine Tham » Wed 01.14.2009 10:13 pm

NocturnalOcean wrote:It's quite disturbing to hear this from a person whose Japanese is quite full of errors.
You must be pretty full of yourself.


Isn't this a bit like the pot calling the kettle black? Especially given your earlier posts?

I'm happy to admit my Japanese is nowhere near perfect. Are you?
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby NocturnalOcean » Wed 01.14.2009 10:16 pm

Christine Tham wrote:
NocturnalOcean wrote:It's quite disturbing to hear this from a person whose Japanese is quite full of errors.
You must be pretty full of yourself.


Isn't this a bit like the pot calling the kettle black? Especially given your earlier posts?

I'm happy to admit my Japanese is nowhere near perfect. Are you?


I am quite aware my Japanese is not perfect. Yet, I am not the one accusing others of not being able to parse and translate Japanese, and calling others Japanese below level jlpt3.
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Christine Tham » Wed 01.14.2009 10:22 pm

NocturnalOcean wrote:I am quite aware my Japanese is not perfect. Yet, I am not the one accusing others of not being able to parse and translate Japanese, and calling others Japanese below level jlpt3.


What about

NocturnalOcean wrote:I am sorry but I think you are wrong here.


NocturnalOcean wrote:I believe you still are wrong.


NocturnalOcean wrote:I just wanted to correct your post
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby NocturnalOcean » Wed 01.14.2009 10:27 pm

Christine Tham wrote:
NocturnalOcean wrote:I am quite aware my Japanese is not perfect. Yet, I am not the one accusing others of not being able to parse and translate Japanese, and calling others Japanese below level jlpt3.


What about

NocturnalOcean wrote:I am sorry but I think you are wrong here.


NocturnalOcean wrote:I believe you still are wrong.


NocturnalOcean wrote:I just wanted to correct your post


I don't see anything wrong in believing others make mistakes?(Whether it is right or not) It's a learning forum afterall
Did I say you weren't able to translate Japanese at all?
Did I say you weren't able to parse even simple Japanese?
Did I say your Japanese were way below level jlpt3?
No I didnt, cause I don't like going to personal attacks like that, but since this is a learning forum, I believe anyone should be allowed to think others are doing a mistake without having to say they suck in language.
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Christine Tham » Wed 01.14.2009 10:37 pm

NocturnalOcean wrote:I don't see anything wrong in believing others make mistakes?(Whether it is right or not) It's a learning forum afterall
Did I say you weren't able to translate Japanese at all?
Did I say you weren't able to parse even simple Japanese?
Did I say your Japanese were way below level jlpt3?


Wasn't that implied by your statements?

I'm sorry, but saying "I believe you are wrong" is a personal attack. I realise English may not be your first language, and you may think this is perfectly acceptable, but it isn't (at least, not to me).

If you really wanted to avoid a personal attack, you could have posted something like "Excuse me, but I believe the sentence could still be interpreted as xxx. My reasons are yyyy. Can you explain your reasoning more clearly?"

NocturnalOcean wrote:I believe anyone should be allowed to think others are doing a mistake without having to say they suck in language.


Isn't this statement in itself a personal attack? Moreover, an unjustified one at that? When did I say someone "suck in language"?

Do you believe people should be allowed to accuse other people of saying things they didn't say?
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 01.14.2009 10:52 pm

"I believe you are wrong" is not a personal attack. Misquoting or misunderstanding someone's post is also not a personal attack. "You obviously can't parse a Japanese sentence" is a personal attack.

You apparently misunderstood my しかも古語 to refer to 万葉仮名 in general and not just the いろは歌, so it can even happen to someone who can parse Japanese sentences perfectly.

This is a discussion forum, and correction of other people's posts is standard practice, without couching it in all kinds of flowery rhetoric. You are having a hard time accepting criticism of your posts, and making criticism of other people's posts without using personal insults. You couldn't even make a simple correction of my 見えません to 見られません without sneaking in an insult towards me.
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Christine Tham » Wed 01.14.2009 11:07 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:"I believe you are wrong" is not a personal attack. Misquoting or misunderstanding someone's post is also not a personal attack. "You obviously can't parse a Japanese sentence" is a personal attack.


I'm afraid I interpret those statements somewhat differently. Can you provide some evidence to justify your seemingly arbitrary interpretation?

I do agree that "misquoting or misunderstanding" by itself is not a personal attack. However, the context of the posts also need to be taken into account.

Yudan Taiteki wrote:You are having a hard time accepting criticism of your posts, and making criticism of other people's posts without using personal insults. You couldn't even make a simple correction of my 見えません to 見られません without sneaking in an insult towards me.


Isn't this a bit like the pot calling the kettle black? Or do you want me to start quoting your previous posts? It does take two to tango you know.

And by the way, it wasn't meant as an insult. Sorry you took it that way. I was trying to give a silly example to show why I didn't think the usage made sense. I see now that it can be interpreted differently. My apologies.

PS - Did you actually really meant "見られません"? That would imply "something is preventing your intention of being able to see to be realised ..." To quote one of my textbooks, 見られる is "the intention of seeing can be realised ..."

That's why I didn't want to respond to your post in Japanese - I really wasn't sure what you said was actually what you meant, because I wasn't sure you were expressing yourself correctly.
Last edited by Christine Tham on Wed 01.14.2009 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby richvh » Wed 01.14.2009 11:08 pm

Knock it off. Christine, you're far too thin-skinned and unwilling to admit that you might be wrong, and far too ready to find fault with others with absolute statements of error. I say this not because I was one of the ones accused of not being up to JLPT 3 level (a condition I shall never test, as I have no intention of taking any level of the JLPT, ever, though I do think it a bit over the top, considering I have written a 93 chapter novel in Japanese, seeking out corrections from native speakers all along the way - and I'm well aware for that very reason that my Japanese is still less than perfect, though better than it used to be) for not agreeing with you as to how して~すること should be interpreted, but from observation of your behavior - arguing from authority, not willing to accept the opinions of even native speakers when they run counter to your opinion, and belittling others far more than you have been belittled. And if you think that is a personal attack, you can take it up with Clay.

(I think Chris Kern has taken the JLPT, but I don't remember what level.)
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby coco » Wed 01.14.2009 11:16 pm

Christine Tham wrote:
Yudan Taiteki wrote:しかも古語。


でも、万葉仮名の言葉、今まだ使っているでしょう。九州で。それで、古語じゃないと思います。「いろは歌」は今日本でいろいろな使い方がありますので、勉強しったらほうがいいかもしれませんね。


Yudan Taiteki wrote:
Christine Tham wrote:
Yudan Taiteki wrote:しかも古語。


でも、万葉仮名の言葉、今まだ使っているでしょう。九州で。


現代は万葉仮名は非常に珍しいです。今は殆ど地名で使っています(奈良など)。当て字や万葉仮名は戦後から頻度が少なくなってきました。万葉仮名は平安時代でも読められなかったんです。

それで、古語じゃないと思います。「いろは歌」は今日本でいろいろな使い方がありますので、勉強しったらほうがいいかもしれませんね。


いろは歌は11世紀からの歌だから古語に違いません。例えば、最初の「色は匂へど」の「匂へど」は現代語で「匂いがするけど」の意味です。

"The iroha is still occasionally encountered in modern Japan."


その使い方は歌の意味じゃなくて、かなの順番だけです。順番でも、現代はほとんどいろはじゃなくて「あいうえお」を使っています。「いろはにほへと」を分かれば大丈夫だと思います。(分からなくても大丈夫だと思うけど...)


NocturnalOcean wrote:
Christine Tham wrote:
Yudan Taiteki wrote:しかも古語。


でも、万葉仮名の言葉、今まだ使っているでしょう。九州で。それで、古語じゃないと思います。「いろは歌」は今日本でいろいろな使い方がありますので、勉強しったらほうがいいかもしれませんね。


It is definitly classical Japanese. Studying this will be of no use in my opinion. Unless you are interested in poems and classical Japanese that is.

私は日本語母語話者ですが、この文章を読んでYudanさん、NocturnalOcenさんと同じように解釈しました。

Christine Tham wrote:
NocturnalOcean wrote:I am not saying it isn't nice knowing, or that you shouldn't study it. I just wanted to correct your post were you said you didn't think it was classical Japanese.


You misunderstood my post. When I said 古語じゃない I was referring to 万葉仮名の言葉, which was the topic introduced earlier. I introduced a new topic 「いろは歌」 *after* this sentence, so obviously my comment does not refer to the new topic.


Christine Tham wrote:
Yudan Taiteki wrote:私の専門は古語なのに、万葉仮名もいろは歌も見えません。


Well, good luck in your studies.

Since in your replies it is clear you have misunderstood what I was saying, there is no point in me replying in Japanese. Especially since you can't even parse or translate Japanese sentences correctly.

I was going to reply in English, but I wasn't sure you would understand that either, since earlier you didn't even intepret my posts in English correctly. Let's agree to disagree.

I do hope that you will eventually gain proficiency in Japanese.


相手の誤読を非難する前に、自分の日本語表現に問題があったとは考えられませんか。

NocturnalOcean wrote:
Christine Tham wrote:
Yudan Taiteki wrote:私の専門は古語なのに、万葉仮名もいろは歌も見えません。


Well, good luck in your studies.

Since in your replies it is clear you have misunderstood what I was saying, there is no point in me replying in Japanese. Especially since you can't even parse or translate Japanese sentences correctly.

I was going to reply in English, but I wasn't sure you would understand that either, since earlier you didn't even intepret my posts in English correctly. Let's agree to disagree.

I do hope that you will eventually gain proficiency in Japanese.


It's quite disturbing to hear this from a person whose Japanese is quite full of errors.
You must be pretty full of yourself.


NocturnOceanさんとまったく同意見です。
Last edited by coco on Wed 01.14.2009 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Christine Tham » Wed 01.14.2009 11:19 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:You apparently misunderstood my しかも古語 to refer to 万葉仮名 in general and not just the いろは歌, so it can even happen to someone who can parse Japanese sentences perfectly.


No, I am sorry, but in the way you constructed your sentence your expressed topic was その漢字の全部は, so the topic was not いろは歌 itself, but the 漢字 contained in it.

This is another example of why I didn't really want to reply any further in Japanese, again I was not sure that you were truly expressing what you meant.

Look, I'm not trying to say you "suck in Japanese" because you clearly don't and you clearly have progressed a long way. But I do recommend that you review your Japanese grammar, and I mean that in the nicest possible way.
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 01.14.2009 11:26 pm

richvh: I passed level 1 of the JLPT in 2004. I also have a Master's degree in Japanese, working on a PhD. Unfortunately my production of Japanese is weaker than it should be, as you can see from some of the basic mistakes I sometimes make.

No, I am sorry, but in the way you constructed your sentence your expressed topic was その漢字の全部は, so the topic was not いろは歌 itself, but the 漢字 contained in it.


古語 applies to language, not characters, so the reference was clearly to the language of the poem and not the characters, pointing back to the topic of the entire post (saying この漢字は古語 doesn't really make sense). Perhaps it would have been more elegant to explicitly say しかも、その歌は古語で書いてあります but the context made the meaning clear without an explicit topic shift.

coco: 私は分からなくなってきました。あの文章で、「見えません」と「見ません」と「見られません」のうちで、どっちが正しいですか。
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Re: What have you gained by using Heisig RTK1?

Postby coco » Wed 01.14.2009 11:30 pm

Christine Tham wrote:I seem to recall you have been studying Japanese for a long time. Maybe longer than me. I recall your posts when I was just a newbie (just started studying). Why don't we both put our study to good use and converse in Japanese?


この希望にそって、Yudanさんは日本語で書いて下さったのではないですか。

Christine Tham wrote:Since in your replies it is clear you have misunderstood what I was saying, there is no point in me replying in Japanese. Especially since you can't even parse or translate Japanese sentences correctly.

I was going to reply in English, but I wasn't sure you would understand that either, since earlier you didn't even intepret my posts in English correctly. Let's agree to disagree.


もし少し、冷静になった方がよいのでは。
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