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Question!!

Have a textbook or grammar book that you find particularly helpful? What about a learning tip to share with others?

RE: Question!!

Postby Kuri » Mon 12.24.2007 3:11 am

How did you learn English? You seem to be passable in that.

Same method should work for japanese.
Hey, so like I\'m not good at formal stuff. Gimme a break, okay
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RE: Question!!

Postby everdream » Mon 12.24.2007 11:07 am

^She learnt English by living in an English speaking country(I Presume), so, it'd be prettyhard to do the same in Japanese.
Last edited by everdream on Mon 12.24.2007 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Question!!

Postby Oracle » Mon 12.24.2007 2:05 pm

everdream wrote:
^She learnt English by living in an English speaking country(I Presume), so, it'd be prettyhard to do the same in Japanese.


Her profile says she lives somewhere called 'California', where ever that is.
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RE: Question!!

Postby HarajukuxBoy » Mon 12.24.2007 5:08 pm

Oracle wrote:
everdream wrote:
^She learnt English by living in an English speaking country(I Presume), so, it'd be prettyhard to do the same in Japanese.


Her profile says she lives somewhere called 'California', where ever that is.

California is a state in North America, which is an english speaking nation.
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RE: Question!!

Postby richvh » Mon 12.24.2007 5:32 pm

HarajukuxBoy wrote:
California is a state in North America, which is an english speaking nation.


It is? Since when is North America a single nation, or solely English speaking?
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RE: Question!!

Postby Kuri » Mon 12.24.2007 7:21 pm

everdream wrote:
^She learnt English by living in an English speaking country(I Presume), so, it'd be prettyhard to do the same in Japanese.


So? Create a japanese speaking environment, or move to one.

Listen, understand, speak. Read, understand, write.

She got good at english by doing that everyday until she was understood, and probably continue to improve even after she could express herself with basic frequency.

No reason not to treat a second language like that.
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RE: Question!!

Postby saraLynne » Mon 12.24.2007 7:46 pm

Kuri wrote:
Create a japanese speaking environment, or move to one.


It's equally as easy to go to the moon. All you have to do is get a rocket ship, a space suit, practice your G-force tolerance a bit and you're good to go.

On a serious note, in case you might miss the sarcasm, that's a naive statement to make. You can't conjure up a Japanese speaking environment on a whim, and moving to another country isn't exactly a matter of packing your things and getting on an airplane.

She got good at english by doing that everyday until she was understood, and probably continue to improve even after she could express herself with basic frequency.


She got good at english by using it and HEARING it every day, in everything she did, from school to buying groceries to playing with friends to baking some cookies. Whether her english is her first language or her second, the fact that she lives in an English-speaking country contributes to her mastery of the language.

No reason not to treat a second language like that.


Quite true. But most people aren't studying Japanese as a second language, they're studying it as a foreign language. The circumstances change the definition (necessity vs. non-necessity).
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RE: Question!!

Postby Kuri » Mon 12.24.2007 8:24 pm

saraLynne wrote:
You can't conjure up a Japanese speaking environment on a whim, and moving to another country isn't exactly a matter of packing your things and getting on an airplane.


Really now, it's not so difficult. And you needn't move to a different country just to change the language around you. A lot of people are bilinguil who grew up in countries where their second language isn't spoken by many.


saraLynne wrote:
She got good at english by using it and HEARING it every day, in everything she did, from school to buying groceries to playing with friends to baking some cookies.


Right, so do that in Japanese. She clearly has internet access, and that should make it pretty easy to immerse herself in whatever language she feels like.

Watch movies, read books, find and talk to natives. When you're buying groceries or baking cookies, make up your shopping list in the language you wanna learn or go find a recipe in that language.

You might not get the same immersion you got as an infant, but hopefully you're smarter than you were then and you can compensate for it. And I bet, with a little effort you'll get more input than those bilinguil kids did who only spoke their second language at home with their parents.

saraLynne wrote:
Quite true. But most people aren't studying Japanese as a second language, they're studying it as a foreign language. The circumstances change the definition (necessity vs. non-necessity).


I suppose you're right, maybe she's not hoping to adopt a second language. Either way, just so long as she does thing she enjoys in that language she'll get as good as she wants to get I guess.
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RE: Question!!

Postby saraLynne » Mon 12.24.2007 9:01 pm

Kuri wrote:
saraLynne wrote:
You can't conjure up a Japanese speaking environment on a whim, and moving to another country isn't exactly a matter of packing your things and getting on an airplane.


Really now, it's not so difficult. And you needn't move to a different country just to change the language around you.


Broad, sweeping, idyllic statements don't change reality. Like my rocket example, it's quite easy to reduce a complex task into something generic and obvious, while clearly outside any level of reasonable expectation.

Although, if you're aware of any all-japanese communities in the united states that are welcoming english-speakers for language exchange, I'd be delighted to hear of them.

She clearly has internet access, and that should make it pretty easy to immerse herself in whatever language she feels like.

Watch movies, read books, find and talk to natives. When you're buying groceries or baking cookies, make up your shopping list in the language you wanna learn or go find a recipe in that language.


That's exposure, not immersion. Having people around you look at you funny when you ask something that's not quite right, and being forced to figure out what you said wrong (IE, feedback from the environment) is immersion. Without feedback, all these little tips and tricks will NOT work "just the same".

And I bet, with a little effort you'll get more input than those bilinguil kids did who only spoke their second language at home with their parents.


No, the bilingual kids in their homes get correct and immediate feedback, correction, and suggestions. The self student isn't going to get that among other people who don't know the target language fluently.

saraLynne wrote:
Quite true. But most people aren't studying Japanese as a second language, they're studying it as a foreign language. The circumstances change the definition (necessity vs. non-necessity).


I suppose you're right, maybe she's not hoping to adopt a second language. Either way, just so long as she does thing she enjoys in that language she'll get as good as she wants to get I guess.


There's a linguistic difference between "second language" and a "foreign language" that I'm not quite sure how to describe (there are entire essays on the subject, so a forum post wouldn't suffice anyway). It hasn't anything to do with your "intent" or your "effort" though. It has less to do with what you want to do, and more to do with the circumstances around your language study.
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RE: Question!!

Postby Kuri » Mon 12.24.2007 9:13 pm

saraLynne wrote:
She clearly has internet access, and that should make it pretty easy to immerse herself in whatever language she feels like.


That's exposure, not immersion. Having people around you look at you funny when you ask something that's not quite right, and being forced to figure out what you said wrong (IE, feedback from the environment) is immersion. Without feedback, all these little tips and tricks will NOT work "just the same".

No, the bilingual kids in their homes get correct and immediate feedback, correction, and suggestions. The self student isn't going to get that among other people who don't know the target language fluently.


^^ I must've articulated that poorly. Yes, those are examples of exposure and amongst them "talk to native speakers" or perhaps it would've been better to "interact with native speakers" does provide feedback.

Immersion is just having constant responsive exposure. Which once again, is not so difficult to do if you can get online.

There are plenty of meetup groups for all sorts of interests, which natives will attend, there are social websites, there are voice chat programmes. You should be able to immerse yourself well enough. (I'm not of course recommending using the internet over real life experience ^^)

Also, don't talk to people who don't speak the language fluently, you'll pick up bad habits. Do talk to critical people.

Oh and about the bilinguil kids, I may have a biased experience but I don't think it would be so hard to outstrip them.


saraLynne wrote:
There's a linguistic difference between "second language" and a "foreign language" that I'm not quite sure how to describe (there are entire essays on the subject, so a forum post wouldn't suffice anyway). It hasn't anything to do with your "intent" or your "effort" though. It has less to do with what you want to do, and more to do with the circumstances around your language study.


So?
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RE: Question!!

Postby HarajukuxBoy » Sun 01.06.2008 5:19 pm

richvh wrote:
HarajukuxBoy wrote:
California is a state in North America, which is an english speaking nation.


It is? Since when is North America a single nation, or solely English speaking?

Of course I know that America is multilingual, but the majority of people speak English or Spanish. Also, I have friends for California, and most people there speak english (depending on where you live of course).
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RE: Question!!

Postby everdream » Sun 01.06.2008 5:44 pm

Kuri wrote:

Immersion is just having constant responsive exposure. Which once again, is not so difficult to do if you can get online.


That's not immersion though still.
Immersion is being surrounded by the language in every circumstance you come across, for most people outside of Japan, that's immpossable.

[/quote]
We grow too soon old and too late smart. - Steve Wright

'Know thyself?' If I knew myself, I'd run away. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

I went on a diet, swore off drinking and heavy eating, and in fourteen days I had lost exactly two weeks.
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RE: Question!!

Postby NocturnalOcean » Sun 01.06.2008 8:23 pm

HarajukuxBoy wrote:
richvh wrote:
HarajukuxBoy wrote:
California is a state in North America, which is an english speaking nation.


It is? Since when is North America a single nation, or solely English speaking?

Of course I know that America is multilingual, but the majority of people speak English or Spanish. Also, I have friends for California, and most people there speak english (depending on where you live of course).


French is also a major language together with English and Spanish.

ps: You you should try to reread richvh's question.
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RE: Question!!

Postby Wakannai » Sun 01.06.2008 9:37 pm

richvh wrote:
HarajukuxBoy wrote:
California is a state in North America, which is an english speaking nation.


It is? Since when is North America a single nation, or solely English speaking?


*snicker
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RE: Question!!

Postby nukemarine » Wed 01.09.2008 12:26 pm

Make sure I got this right: Someone offers the suggestion to create a Japanese environment around you. That's not good as it's like saying you should goto the moon (ie not possible outside of Japan). The person expands the suggestion saying utilize the internet to get material for the immersion (books, audio, video, chat, etc.). That's not good as it's not immersion but exposure (not much of a difference) as apparently you need funny looks to get good feedback.

Wow, it's amazing the can do attitude that proliferates this board.

For what it's worth, it's hard to get full immersion (by the standards of those in this thread) even in Japan as there's WAY too much English everywhere. Even worse, many Japanese would just as soon try their English on you. And for feedback, well, let's say they're very forgiving of grammatical mistakes so you may find it hard to get useful feedback.

Original Poster: Follow the advice of Kuri and download or otherwise obtain tons of Japanese material that interests you and alot that doesn't. Manga, anime, drama, movies, movies dubbed in Japanese, music, news, and anything else you can use to create an audio/visual environment that'll surround you daily. How you obtain these is your call as there are legal and not so legal ways to do it.

Now, that itself won't help you very fast unless you expand on it with learning. Plenty of threads here to help you there. If you're going the self study route, I'd say start with Heisig while using the Remembering the Kanji website to learn 2000 kanji's (well, learn how to write each kanji correctly based on an English keyword that closely relates to the kanji's concept). Then go the AJATT sentence route (again, some threads on that here I believe).

Seems to be working for me. Guess I'll find out after the JLPT 2 test at the end of this year (well that, and the DLAB for Japanese).
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