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Does Chinese learn Japanese have adventage?

Have a textbook or grammar book that you find particularly helpful? What about a learning tip to share with others?

RE: Does Chinese learn Japanese have adventage?

Postby Xurma » Sat 02.02.2008 9:37 am

They have an advantage in characters as others said.
But it may be confusing for them because learning different pronunciations for same looking characters may be the same as we'd try to learn different pronunciations for roman alphabet, or that's what I think.
Last edited by Xurma on Sat 02.02.2008 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Does Chinese learn Japanese have adventage?

Postby enji » Sat 02.02.2008 11:11 am

chchan45 wrote:
To answer the original question, it certainly helps in reading, but causes problems in listening. When the Chinese hear a 熟語, they tend to "map" it to a word in the Chinese language rather than try to decipher its meaning. This is a different mechanism and takes slightly longer. Unfortunately Japanese has much fewer syllables than Chinese so the sounds can map to a larger number of kanjis.

This is so true. When I first heard a new word, I tend to link it to a Chinese word to guess the meaning. But once I learn the word, this won't happen anymore (I hope). :)

Chinese grammar is also completely different from Japanese grammar so it does not help either. You will probably see me making mistakes with がは for ages to come.

Yup, grammar is the main stumbling block. Also vocab which uses hiragana only, for me at least.

Sometimes I have problem linking hiragana with kanji. This is especially so when I first learn the word in kanji. It's like when I see the kanji, I have no problem pronouncing it. But when I see the hiragana only, it usually takes me quite a while before I realise that I actually know this word, in kanji form that is. Or it just shows that I am not familiar with that word yet.

As for speaking, when I don't know the word in Japanese or I couldn't think up the word on the spot, I end up katakana-ising the English word instead, and continue with the rest of the sentence in Japanese. :p
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RE: Does Chinese learn Japanese have adventage?

Postby furrykef » Sat 02.02.2008 11:43 am

enji wrote:
Sometimes I have problem linking hiragana with kanji. This is especially so when I first learn the word in kanji. It's like when I see the kanji, I have no problem pronouncing it. But when I see the hiragana only, it usually takes me quite a while before I realise that I actually know this word, in kanji form that is. Or it just shows that I am not familiar with that word yet.


That was my main stumbling block (other than the fact that I wasn't properly prepared for studying kanji) when I tried to study Japanese vocabulary in early 2007, and was the main reason I abandoned the method I was using then. I had three cards for each vocabulary item, like this:

?:あんぜん:safety

安全:?:safety

安全:あんぜん:?

I would find that I could easily get each answer right consistently, yet still not be able to recognize the word from its hiragana form. The problem was that none of the questions really required me to passively recognize the hiragana form. True, the first one will require it if I find another word that means "safety", so I can tell which "safety" we're talking about, but that situation doesn't always come up, especially since you tend not to learn synonyms in the early stages.

The next time around, I'll probably start using the sentence method, and each sentence will have two cards: one with the sentence written normally using kanji, and one with it written in kana. If the question is in kanji, I'll pronounce the sentence aloud and compare it to the written reading; if it's in hiragana, I'll write the sentence down using kanji on paper. For both types of questions, I will also be required to understand the vocabulary and grammar in the sentence as well.

- Kef
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RE: Does Chinese learn Japanese have adventage?

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sat 02.02.2008 12:43 pm

Being able to read words in kanji but not recognize the same words in kana (or speech) is a fairly common problem from what I've seen (I experienced it myself). I think that generally it's a symptom of weak study methods -- typically focusing too much on kanji and on rough understanding of sentences.

One thing I found helpful was playing text-heavy, fully voiced RPG video games in Japanese -- this obviously is not a solution for beginners, though.

Reading sentences aloud I think is good practice to train yourself away from connecting kanji sequences to English words instead of Japanese. Also, this is one big reason why I think that everyone should do as much speaking/listening as they can, even if their main interest is reading. I think that the more spoken Japanese you know, the easier it is to connect kanji to Japanese rather than English.

(Some people might wonder why it's necessary to know the reading if you know the meaning -- I think there are two main reasons: First, if you don't know the reading of the word you will never recognize it in speech. Second, typically if you don't know the reading of the word, what you are actually doing is connecting the kanji sequence to an English word in your mind, which means that when you read, you are switching back and forth between English and Japanese. Presumably this limits your reading speed.)

Another exercise I think would be useful for the sentences is to find some way to record someone (even yourself) reading them aloud, and then try to go from the spoken sentence to the written form. This seems a little more natural to me than going from all kana (or romaji) -> kana/kanji.
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RE: Does Chinese learn Japanese have adventage?

Postby two_heads_talking » Sat 02.02.2008 1:03 pm

the chinese friends I know have said they understand teh basic meaning of the kanji (since as has been mentioned alot is borrowed from china at one point or another) but when it comes to reading it, they say they still read it in chinese. I am not really sure how that helps any, but that's what they do..

and yes, the chinese accent is very distinct as they tend to "sing song" or tone the words much more than English speakers would.

I will admit that my kanji knowledge has always suffered due to lack of time in country to study it. as missionaries, our focus wasn't to learn kanji, but kaiwa, as we conversed all the time. Of course, over 2 years, even if you don't make any effort, you will see certain kanji over and over and will learn those as well. ON the other hand, the kanji I did learn were mainly religious in nature, and later on military in nature, so my kanji development has always been a bit retarded in that arena.

However, being able to look up kanji, and being able to have a decent vocabulary and grammar background, it definately helps, when I have to decipher something. the problem I usually have is RAW kanji takes me a while to get through, where kaiwa is hardly any effort at all. Go figure.
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RE: Does Chinese learn Japanese have adventage?

Postby AJBryant » Sat 02.02.2008 3:28 pm

furrykef wrote:
I had three cards for each vocabulary item, like this:

?:あんぜん:safety

安全:?:safety

安全:あんぜん:?f


I kind of like that idea.

The only problem is that there comes a logical point to where making cards -- let alone THREE per word -- is no longer practical. How do you develop a vocabulary of 5,000 or 10,000 or 20,000 words or more if you use CARDS? That would be a hell of a pile of index cards, and pity the forests. ;)

Tony
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RE: Does Chinese learn Japanese have adventage?

Postby furrykef » Sat 02.02.2008 3:40 pm

I don't use physical cards, silly. I use a flash card program (SuperMemo in my case, though I recommend Mnemosyne or Anki to most people). It not only eliminates the big mess that a large number of cards creates, it also manages when the cards should be repeated for optimum memory retention. I currently have 3315 cards in my collection (1305 Spanish items, 1827 Heisig items, 183 Latin items) and I currently do a little over 100 repetitions per day (plus I repeat the ones I missed until I get them right). I usually answer about 85-90% of my questions correctly on any given day.

I don't use that three-card format anymore for the reasons already stated, so I don't have any Japanese vocabulary cards right now, since I'm waiting to finish Heisig before learning vocabulary and grammar again.

- Kef
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RE: Does Chinese learn Japanese have adventage?

Postby zomegashot » Mon 02.04.2008 8:17 pm

Wow...that korean girl really sucks at pronunciation xD
한국말を知っても일본말を助けての것ではない…

and while i'm at it, please correct above if wrong
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RE: Does Chinese learn Japanese have adventage?

Postby two_heads_talking » Tue 02.05.2008 11:36 am

AJBryant wrote:
furrykef wrote:
I had three cards for each vocabulary item, like this:

?:あんぜん:safety

安全:?:safety

安全:あんぜん:?f


I kind of like that idea.

The only problem is that there comes a logical point to where making cards -- let alone THREE per word -- is no longer practical. How do you develop a vocabulary of 5,000 or 10,000 or 20,000 words or more if you use CARDS? That would be a hell of a pile of index cards, and pity the forests. ;)

Tony


why you do what I have suggested. 1 kanji per hour (for 10 hours.. that's 10 kanji per day) for a day. then review those 10 kanji once a day for a week. then review those 10 kanji once a week for amonth.. then once amonth for a year.. and then once a year. you shouldhave it set in your mind by then. of course each day you add another 10 in and boom, you are a machine. (too bad in my time in Japan, I couldn't do that , as I was learning vocabulary (religious of course) for that same time. I still know them, even though i haven't used them in 20 years or so.
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RE: Does Chinese learn Japanese have adventage?

Postby furrykef » Tue 02.05.2008 12:03 pm

You realize that right now your posts aren't being backed up for the server move and may end up being effectively deleted, right?
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