Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

View topic - Japanese in Mangaland

Japanese in Mangaland

Have a textbook or grammar book that you find particularly helpful? What about a learning tip to share with others?

is it good or not?

yes
3
43%
no
0
No votes
maybe
4
57%
 
Total votes : 7

Re: Japanese in Mangaland

Postby Frug » Wed 03.19.2008 4:59 pm

What makes me think it is targeted at kids? Well, the book itself claims that it is for a start. Yes - learners of all ages could use it, and as I said, I think it is a good resource. But of all the words that can be katakana-ised why why why include that one?
Frug
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat 03.01.2008 9:44 am

Re: Japanese in Mangaland

Postby Wakannai » Wed 03.19.2008 5:04 pm

Frug wrote:What makes me think it is targeted at kids? Well, the book itself claims that it is for a start. Yes - learners of all ages could use it, and as I said, I think it is a good resource. But of all the words that can be katakana-ised why why why include that one?


maybe because if you are reading kids manga, that word does come up a lot.

I'd be more impressed with JiM if it had sound files or more in-depth workbooks. Right now there is only a work book for the first textbook in the series. So it is more of a supplement than a primary source.
Wakannai
 
Posts: 658
Joined: Thu 10.18.2007 6:38 am

Re: Japanese in Mangaland

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 03.19.2008 5:38 pm

Frug wrote:What makes me think it is targeted at kids? Well, the book itself claims that it is for a start. Yes - learners of all ages could use it, and as I said, I think it is a good resource. But of all the words that can be katakana-ised why why why include that one?


I'm pretty sure the book is aimed at American otaku, not kids. Most of them probably already know what "lolicon" is.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

Re: Japanese in Mangaland

Postby skrhgh3b » Wed 03.19.2008 7:05 pm

Kyumi wrote:釣りでしょ?

「ロリコン」の意味を知らないのは、中学生までよね。

それより ピーちゃん、この本を買うより普通なふりがな付きのマンガを買って辞書で読んでみたらどうなの? そうするなら自分の好きにジャンルなどが選べると思うわ。

よければMSNとかであたしが大変なとこを手伝ってあげようとする。


You have to be a fairly advanced learner to read most manga, even with a dictionary. Not only do you have to have a good grasp on grammar to be comfortable reading "real" dialogue, but you also have to be at least familiar with a lot of colloquialisms. Most people interested in a book like that are probably beginners....

But still, that's a really generous offer.
♪夢も見たくない 幸せなんか要らない
恋もしたくない お金なんか要らない
ぼくに必要な眠りを眠らせておくれ♪
skrhgh3b
 
Posts: 517
Joined: Sun 07.24.2005 3:57 am

Re: Japanese in Mangaland

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 03.19.2008 7:13 pm

Two of the biggest misconceptions that people have about learning Japanese are (1) that things intended for native Japanese children are good for beginners, and (2) things that put furigana on all the kanji are easy for beginners to deal with.

(Actually I could add a third -- that all you need to decipher something in Japanese is a dictionary and time.)
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

Re: Japanese in Mangaland

Postby Wakannai » Wed 03.19.2008 8:16 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:(Actually I could add a third -- that all you need to decipher something in Japanese is a dictionary and time.)


QFT.

It took me a while to figure that out. I'm sure that years ago, when I would get so excited because I ordered lots of kids books off Ebay, Tony was just shaking his head. In a way, I wish he had been more discouraging, I don't remember him commenting on it at all at the time.
Wakannai
 
Posts: 658
Joined: Thu 10.18.2007 6:38 am

Re: Japanese in Mangaland

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 03.19.2008 8:41 pm

I think every Japanese learner has to figure that out for themselves the hard way. I definitely tried the "decode with a dictionary" approach pretty early on, and watched it fail spectacularly myself.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

Re: Japanese in Mangaland

Postby p-chan » Wed 03.19.2008 9:32 pm

I've seen all the "preview" pages in amazon.. umm and i only saw a 1 panel of manga.. uhmmmm... i was expecting more of a manga in the lesson books.. like the workbook has..
p-chan
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed 10.10.2007 7:44 pm

Re: Japanese in Mangaland

Postby richvh » Wed 03.19.2008 9:50 pm

I managed to get through one of the two children's books (おおきなかぶ} I bought 'way back when I was stationed in Japan by the "look everything up in the dictionary" after a semester of Japanese - the other one (だいくとおにろく) was beyond me until I happened to find it recently.

However, おおきなかぶ is extremely simple and repetitive, compared to most children's books - most of it consists of adding one more person to the line pulling on the giant cabbage, and reciting the entire list again.
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
Posts: 6451
Joined: Thu 09.29.2005 10:35 pm

Re: Japanese in Mangaland

Postby Sairana » Thu 03.20.2008 1:51 am

p-chan wrote:I've seen all the "preview" pages in amazon.. umm and i only saw a 1 panel of manga.. uhmmmm... i was expecting more of a manga in the lesson books.. like the workbook has..


No, I looked at this book at Barnes & Noble and each lesson has maybe a panel of Manga. Not recognizable manga, either. Nothing famous, and nothing that even resembles a story. They're individual frames pulled out for example and relevance to the lesson.

EDIT: Not to say that i thought it looked like a bad language book! I thought it looked fairly thorough. However, I just don't think it's what a "manga fan" would be expecting from it.
Sairana
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed 02.27.2008 11:54 pm
Native language: (US) English
Gender: Female

Re: Japanese in Mangaland

Postby Frug » Thu 03.20.2008 2:15 am

I think we could be missing the point here.

The book is aimed at kids - it says as such in the intro - and the style is used effectively to engage younger learners. Now, I am not talking about 10yo or younger - I am talking about kids in Junior High age. I also recognise that the book could be used very well for older learners as well.

My point is, however, that does a word like "rorikon" merit inclusion? It was not in any context - it just sits in a list of other katakana words like "kuri-na-", "raion" and "hamoni-". Was it critical to an understanding of the Japanese people or language that the author absolutely had to have it somewhere in a text book?

I am not disputing the word's existence or usage pattern - I just question the choice of inclusion when a language as rich as Japanese has so many more appropriate options.

Frug
Frug
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat 03.01.2008 9:44 am

Re: Japanese in Mangaland

Postby Shirasagi » Thu 03.20.2008 4:50 am

Looking at the cover, I see a bare-backed, nubile young woman with a sword. I think that's a pretty good indication that while teens and pre-teens may use the book to learn Japanese, it's not targeted at kids. (In fact, one's tempted to think it's targeted exactly at ロリコン American otaku...)

But what merit's ロリコン's inclusion? Well, for one, it doesn't simply mean "Lolita complex" in the Western sense of the word. It's used quite loosely in Japanese just an indicator for an attraction to "kawaii" (versus attraction to "sexy" or "beautiful" or "iyashi"). For example, the leading pictorial idol for ロリコン is Aki Hoshino, who is 30 years old and certainly doesn't look like a teenager. Still, her looks are more in the "kawaii" category, and so she's termed a "lolita idol".

One sees the same thing with S&M. S&M are of course linked with bondage play in the West. But in Japan the terms are loosely used to describe someone who likes to take control in a relationship (S) versus someone who's more pliable and yielding (M). (Once very humorously and aptly summed up by Masaru Hamaguchi of Yoiko as "Semeru type" and "Makaseru type.") Or even more loosely, to describe aggressive Type A personalities compared to passive Type B personalities. In many kinds of manga, one is likely to come across these terms.

As Wakannai pointed out, someone who reads lots of manga is likely to come across the term, so it's not so unusual that it's in a book targeted primarily at manga otaku.
Josh Reyer
------------
頓ニ纜ヲ斬テ大荒ニ入レ。
長岡桃嶺房成
Shirasagi
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed 02.14.2007 10:50 am

Re: Japanese in Mangaland

Postby Frug » Thu 03.20.2008 9:58 am

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this point.

I think (as so does the author) that this book is aimed at young people.

I think that the inclusion of 'rorikon' was an error because
(a) it was without context
(b) it is not essential to learn in order to gain an understanding of Katakana
(c) it is not essential to earn in order to gain an understanding of culture
(d) it is not an appropriate term for young people.

It is a shame because I have really liked all the other aspects of the book.

Frug
Frug
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat 03.01.2008 9:44 am

Re: Japanese in Mangaland

Postby Qaantar » Thu 03.20.2008 11:48 am

Might I suggest changing the "kon" to "poppu"? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

To get back to the poster's original question... I have to say that, having read the books, they're pretty thorough. I've found that the biggest benefit is that the book usually breaks down the example manga sentences. That's been a big help when you run into an extremely informal and contracted sentence -- to have somebody explain what all the short-cuts are and what it means.

But other than that, does the series give you anything that other grammar learning books don't? No, not really. Does it seem really cool because you're learning from manga? Eh, not really. The second big benefit from the series is that the style of the text is very informal. It's like learning from a friend than from a formal instructor.

Hope that helps!
Qaantar
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat 03.08.2008 2:30 pm
Location: コーパス コリスチ、テクサス、 米国

Re: Japanese in Mangaland

Postby sei » Thu 03.20.2008 12:14 pm

Shirasagi wrote:One sees the same thing with S&M. S&M are of course linked with bondage play in the West. But in Japan the terms are loosely used to describe someone who likes to take control in a relationship (S) versus someone who's more pliable and yielding (M). (Once very humorously and aptly summed up by Masaru Hamaguchi of Yoiko as "Semeru type" and "Makaseru type.") Or even more loosely, to describe aggressive Type A personalities compared to passive Type B personalities. In many kinds of manga, one is likely to come across these terms.


What you described for Japan, I have actually seen here too. And at first it really confused me. Why would someone use S&M to describe a couple where one is Dominant and the other submissive? In a relationship like that the Dominant doesn't need to be Sadistic, nor the submissive masochist. In fact, there are other terms which would be more proper for meaning something like that, such as D/s or even BDSM, since it's more general. So I thought it really weird when my math teacher read S&M from an article which was talking about Dominant and submissive positions on a normal couple...
And of course, I don't agree that S&M are linked with bondage play... but I do have to agree people see it like that most of the time.

To the OP... I think Japanese in Mangaland is a good book to have on the side. It shouldn't be used as a main textbook in my opinion. And even though it is very interesting in the first lessons, it becomes a bit boring on the more grammatical lessons. It simple gives you a quick explanation (doesn't mean it's bad, it's just a bit short but understandable) and then a chart for you to memorize and then some panels of manga as example sentences.
I'd say it'd be more useful as a quick review book or introduction book. For example, read through the part your main textbook will be discussing in the lesson on JiM to get a general feel of what it is about and then go through your textbook's lesson.

If you do intend to use it for more serious work though, you definitely need the workbook.

Only my opinion though...
Image
Questions? Feel free to ask. :)
User avatar
sei
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Fri 03.30.2007 3:34 pm
Location: Portugal
Native language: Portuguese
Gender: Female

PreviousNext

Return to Learning Materials Reviews & Language Learning tips

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

cron