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Rosetta stone

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Re: Rosetta stone

Postby Sairana » Tue 04.29.2008 12:06 pm

nukemarine wrote:and allowed one to tailor how they wish to be tested (For me, I'd like to test Kanji to Picture and Spoken to Picture).


It can do that.

The multiple tabs along the left side let you choose your focus. The book is for reading only, the speaker image is for listening practice. The default is the top tab, which gives both with the picture.

The guided lesson function seems very similar to SRS to me, so as long as you are doing one lesson a day, I think it would have the same effect. Sure, it doesn't pop up on your computer screen like Anki does to remind you, "Hey, it's time to learn something." But... well, that just seems unnecessary to me. :P
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Re: Rosetta stone

Postby nukemarine » Wed 04.30.2008 6:58 am

Sairana,

I think you have a slight misconception about what an SRS does. You do not learn with an SRS. You remember what you learned with an SRS. The items popping up have not been reviewed in a certain time meaning you should review it soon lest you forget it.

Rosetta Stone instead does it for short term memory (which is GREAT, do not misunderstand me) in that when you finish a lesson you've picked the correct sentence for the picture and the correct picture for the sentence. It prevents someone, such as my daughter, that would click till she got it right. Instead, she learned she must get it right or will be seeing it again.

Problem is long term memory is not used. So something like Zou (elephant) is shown once and you don't see it again for quite some time. Kuruma and Uma get lots of play in earlier lessons. Now, if you had something like an SRS, you would not need such things like review chapters. It could work if Rosetta ever bothered to implement such a thing, especially if its optional.

As for guided reviews, I prefer those but it's not tailorable. You must go through: Card to word, word to card, blanked out card to word, blanked out word to card. What I would look for is Word (kanji) to card and Spoken to card. In addition would be a button to either speak out the word or show the word in kanji. Reason being, I want to hear it and write it down to test that part, then read it and pronounce it correctly while both picking the correct picture (meaning I got the context too). It's a triple slam learning process I currently do with my SRS.

For me, an SRS is GREAT. There's no way I would have learned how to recognize and write 2000 kanji in 4 months without it. Nor would I be going through my sentences at such a pace. It's knowing what I like about Rosetta that makes me wish they did offer an SRS variant with its lessons. It would not be difficult, hell, I did it on my own for the first two chapters. But that's me.
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Re: Rosetta stone

Postby Sairana » Wed 04.30.2008 9:34 am

nukemarine wrote:As for guided reviews, I prefer those but it's not tailorable. You must go through: Card to word, word to card, blanked out card to word, blanked out word to card. What I would look for is Word (kanji) to card and Spoken to card. In addition would be a button to either speak out the word or show the word in kanji.


As I said, the "listening only" and "reading only" exercises do exactly that. Kanji word/phrase, pick from 4 pictures, OR! 1 picture, pick from 4 kanji options. Or, a spoken word/phrase (no kanji to help you), pick from 4 pictures, OR! 1 picture, listen to 4 spoken answers, choose the right one.

In the lessons, you can't simply click through the images until you get it right, because it DOES queue that set of cards up to come again before the lesson is over. And if you get it wrong again, it queues again. And again. And again. Eventually, even if you were just guessing in the beginning, you will come up with the right answers first try.
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Re: Rosetta stone

Postby nukemarine » Wed 04.30.2008 8:50 pm

Oh, yes, you're right. However, those lessons, unless I'm mistaken, do not make you go back and redo cards you missed. It's the guided lesson that has the 100% to finish set-up that I like.

Do not get me wrong, Rosetta has a lot going for it. It just is missing things that I now desire.
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Re: Rosetta stone

Postby p-chan » Mon 05.05.2008 2:48 am

Snowflake wrote:Brilliant, Nukemarineさん! With just a bit of digging, I was able to find an English translation of the Rosetta Stone book. Lest anyone think I found something I shouldn't have, it is accessible directly from Rosetta Stone's own Knowledge Base. Given that, I assume they don't have a problem with anyone looking at it.

I didn't have time to do a lot of playing around with it, but I did give it a glance-through. A few of the translations worry me. Using JUST a picture, how can I, as the language learner, know that the lesson is trying to convey the abstract concept of "someone" (as in "someone" is on a horse)? And how do I, as the language learner, know that the aforementioned "someone" in the picture is "on" the horse as opposed to "riding" the horse?

One more quick observation: I tried a quick quiz this evening, testing listening and writing. Rosetta Stone pronounced the word and showed me the picture (dog) and I was supposed to write it. Sadly, there were only two choices of input: I could type in romaji and it would display in romaji or I could pick, multiple-choice-style, from a pre-selected group of 7 or 8 hiragana characters (thus limiting the number of mistakes I could possibly make). I would love to have been able to input the romaji and have it display as hiragana, reinforcing my reading a bit. Or if they have given me ALL the syllables, I would have had to know exactly the ones I wanted to use. As you said, it would be nice if the learner had some way to tailor the testing segments.

I like the concept of Rosetta Stone. I like it more now that I have a wee bit of Japanese knowledge. However, I can still only see it as a supplement to my learning, not my primary source. By the same token, as you suggested, I suppose it's always good to have a variety of media from which to learn because each piece can reinforce the others. Since I've already spent the money anyway, it won't hurt to have Rosetta Stone thrown in the mix. I'm glad this thread convinced me to dust it off and give it another go.



did you try using the guided exercises?
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Re: Rosetta stone

Postby Jagadis » Tue 05.06.2008 12:14 am

Hey everyone,

Rosetta Stone just released the new Japanese Version 3 of the software and its a complete rewrite. I returned the old version and they shipped the new one free of charge. I was wondering if anyone can comment on the new version? The content is totally different with a new engine and new photos and vocabulary.

Any comment on whether some of the criticisms have been addressed?

Jag
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Re: Rosetta stone

Postby Sairana » Tue 05.06.2008 4:58 am

Oh god, seriously they got version 3 for Japanese now?

I piloted version 3 on their site in the demo, and absolutely loved the layout and the new Q&A type exercises. I'm sorry (so sorry!) to report that I haven't actually tried it with the Japanese (obviously). But I think it looks very exciting.

They're upgrading yours for free? That's awesome, too, because when I contacted them back when they first had version three for only 11 of their languages, they said that an exchange would not be possible. I'm thrilled!
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Re: Rosetta stone

Postby Snowflake » Tue 05.06.2008 8:54 am

Goodness, Jagadis, that's very interesting news. If a demo is on their website (I don't have time right now to try), I'll definitely give it a go. Sadly for me, even if there is a trade-in for the new version, I doubt they'd let me trade. My Rose is well over 2 years old and I don't have a receipt :(.

Still, for folks who don't have it and who are interested in getting it, I'm sure an updated version is very good news indeed!

************************************
Update:

Pffft. I cannot even look at the demo without providing personal info (name and email). Right there, that's a major turnoff. Unless that policy changes, I won't be looking at their demo. And, without a demo, there is no way I'll be plunking down the money for the new version, especially since I feel I really haven't gotten my money's worth from the old version. Oh well, their loss.
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Re: Rosetta stone

Postby piepiepie75 » Tue 05.06.2008 2:48 pm

Meh, I just gave them a fake name and an old e-mail address that I never use anymore.

I was disappointed though, I thought you would be able to choose which language you wanted to demo, but it only lets you demo the new program in Turkish apparently :(. Overall, I really didn't see much change. I mean, the interface looked nicer, and the pictures were clearer, but I didn't see anything that would suggest that it's going to be more accessible for people who had trouble learning with it before.
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Re: Rosetta stone

Postby Jagadis » Tue 05.06.2008 4:46 pm

Just to clarify a few points...

Rosetta Stone will give you a free upgrade if you purchased the software within the last six months. I bought Japanese Version 2 in December and given I was still in the 6 month window, they gave me an RMA# to return the product and shipped a new one for free. The catch it is that my Version 2 copy included Level 1 and 2. The new Japanese Version 3 has Levels 1, 2 and 3. Level 3 wasn't included with the free upgrade so I'll have to pony up more money if I ever get that far.

I've spent a couple of evenings working with the software and I've noticed some improvements. The most obvious is the better choice of more useful words and phrases in the first levels. It looks like they have chosen words and phrases that are much more immediately useful for someone starting off. Some of you may recall that elephant, horse and airplane were nouns that were in the first few lessons of Version 2 (kinda silly choices). They have moved to more common/useful things like newspaper, tea, juice, water, etc. I've only done the first few lessons but you can download the full list of phrases from their website and it looks more logical. The other thing is that the pictures are much clearer and of better quality. The pictures in Version 2 were a bit confusing and sometimes you couldn't quite figure out what what was going on in the pictures.

The other thing I've noticed is that the software makes constant use of the headset/microphone throughout the lessons. In the old Version 2 there was a module you could select to test your pronunciation. In Version 3, you have the wear the headset all the time because the software keeps constantly prompting you to both click on the answers as well as verbally read and speak the answer. Whenever you read an answer, it does a voice recognition calculation on your answer and warns you if you make mistakes. For the reading screens, there is a button at the bottom that lets you switch between Romanji, Kana or Kanji...which is excellent. I keep it set to Kana all the time to help me practice my Kana reading skills. I flip to Romanji only when I get stuck and can't remember one of the Kana characters.

Once you progress through the modules, it keeps track of which modules you have completed in each lesson and marks them red, yellow and green depending on how many mistakes you made. This lets you keep track of your mistakes and reminds you to go back and practice some sections.

Bear in mind that I'm a real beginner that hasn't gone too deep with the software yet. So far I'm enjoying it but I would really be interested in hearing from a more advanced person who has had a chance to review the Version 3 software.

Jag.
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