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Posted some Manga

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Posted some Manga

Postby IkimashoZ » Tue 12.27.2005 6:55 am

I posted some manga. I would like to generate some discussion concerning the grammar thereof. I would also like to know what manga you're interested so I can go buy and read more interesting manga.

Thanks.

http://manga.languagesite.net/
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby AJBryant » Tue 12.27.2005 11:35 am

For the record,
天国(てんこく)とは神(かみ)のおわすことなり
heaven [inc.][top.] god > exist matters[arc. pres. pos.]
As for with heaven, there are matters concerning god's existence.


天国(てんこく)とは神(かみ)のおわすことなり means "Heaven is where God is."

The translation (and implied meanings) are rife with errors, I'm afraid. Too many to point out individually. In addition, the philosophy of the translation has problems. (e.g., for an obscure foreign word from the original --sakimori -- you chose another obscure word in *another* foreign language as the translation? Gimme a break. Try 'border guard'.)

You gotta work a little harder. :)

Tony
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby Harisenbon » Tue 12.27.2005 10:27 pm

I have to agree with Tony here, the translation is really hacked on. The English barely makes any sense, and I noticed a lot of mistakes as well.

声(こえ)だけでなく姿(すがた)を見せて(みせて)!!!
Voice only [con.] lackingly figure [obj.] showing!!!
By means of only your voice, show me your missing figure.
That's quite a mess. She chopped off a word at the end because she's not to worried about being polite. 見せて should be 見せてください.


The Japanese isn't quite a mess here, it's perfectly normal. The English that goes along with it is wretched though. Also, ください wasn't chopped off, it was omited because it was never needed in the first place.

While it's admirable that you are trying to translate some manga, I would focus on getting your English sentences to make more sense, instead of trying to make them seem like "literal translations."

The correct translation for the above would be something like
"Stop talking and show yourself!"
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby IkimashoZ » Wed 12.28.2005 1:03 am

Tony:
"Heaven is where god is" is your idea of a good traslation?? "Border guard" is the best you can do?? I'm very confused about what your particular "philosophy of translation" is. Your suggestions, to be quite honest, seem abysmally dull to me, whereas the Japanese evokes concepts that have no reference in English. I would prefer a colorful description to a painfully accurate one. BTW, 'palsgrave' is English. Obscure Japanese words should have obscure English equivalents. :P

Harisenbon:
"The English barely makes any sense, and I noticed a lot of mistakes as well."
Uh, yeah, if you'd bothered to read the last sentence in the paragraph, you'd see that I proposed a 'real English' translation. Also, if you'd bothered to hit the big blue link on the main page that reads 'If it's your first time here, read this!' you'd have seen the following text, which would have made everythinig very clear: "Did I confuse you when you first looked at the translation? You're probably asking yourself what all that garbage under the Japanese is, right? Well, it's only garbage to some of us, anyway. You see, each person's brain works a little bit differently. For some of us, an extremely literal translation can be extraordinarily helpful at any learning level. That's why this site provides three kinds of translations. The first is an extremely literal translation, which displays the functions of particles, conjugation types of verbs and direct translations to English of all words. The second is called a transitional translation. This is a translation that adjusts for word order and functional grammar, but makes no attempt to reword or rework the sentence to achieve 'natural English' in any way. The final translation is the one that does adjust for 'natural English', and also adds or subtracts material either to make the dialogue flow or to allow for cultural differences." I don't know where you get off criticizing my English when you can't even follow simple directions in English yourself.

Also, maybe you're smart enough to figure out that 見せて has the same meaning as 見せてください (save for the lost formalitly), but I can clearly remember a time when I saw this structure for the first time and was completely confused as to what was "supposed" to come at the end. Books usually only teach 〜てください and don't bother with the variations. And that's what the whole point of the project is. To fill in the gaps and give people access to the real language on ANY level that works for them. Don't like the literal translations? Then simply ignore them!

I'm not saying my translation is perfect. In fact in the line you mentioned, I belive I misread it the first time and upon looking at it again, I'm ready to make some changes.

If either you or Tony have any "help" you'd like to give me in the future I recommend you both do so constructively. I would have been happy to add your comments to the site if they hadn't been so inflammatory.
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby IkimashoZ » Wed 12.28.2005 1:23 am

Actually, just to be completely sure, I asked a Japanese person about the meaning of the line in question, and he confirmed that the meaning of the first half (before the line break) carried the meaning of "I can only hear you" and not "shut up".
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby Harisenbon » Wed 12.28.2005 2:43 am

Ok, first, you really need to calm down.
Second, there are contructive things to be found in everything.

1) Tony's comment about your God line is correct.

2) Both of us saw your page and saw horrible trasnlations, and not your "native english" translations at the bottom of each paragraph. This suggests to me that you need to rework your layout. The native english meaning should probably go first, and then with a break down of the sentences after it. If the only text I see before the long explanation is
声(こえ)だけでなく 姿(すがた)を見せて(みせて)!!!
Voice only [con.] lackingly / figure [obj.] showing!!!
By means of only your voice, show me your missing figure.

Then I'm going to be lost straight from the beginning. I would suggest something like:

Japanese
English
Word for Word breakdown
Overly literal translation (if you go in for that sort of thing).

I think what you have going is good, and that it's good that you're challenging yourself. However, like I said before, I think you should work on making your English sentences more clear.

As for the part that I picked on.

IkimashoZ wrote:
Actually, just to be completely sure, I asked a Japanese person about the meaning of the line in question, and he confirmed that the meaning of the first half (before the line break) carried the meaning of "I can only hear you" and not "shut up".


But in english do you say "I can only hear you, show yourself?" It doesn't carry the same kind of feeling that you would get from the Japnaese. Which is why it isn't a literal translation. You gave a literal translation of
By means of only your voice, show me your missing figure.

I don't know where you're getting this by "by means of" and what not.
I think a literal translation would be more like
"Not only your voice, show me your self!"

Like I said before, I think it's good that you're doing this, and I think it'll improve your Japanese. But you have to realize that your translations are not going to be perfect right off the bat. You're going to get a LOT of flak, and you just need to take it and learn from it. If you learn from it, you get better. If not, you just get pissed off.

If you want any advice on any of the other translations, I'd be happy to lend a hand.
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby IkimashoZ » Wed 12.28.2005 3:34 am

"not only" is deceptive in English though because of the difference between だけ and しか. "not only" is more truly しか. The sentence is difficult because you've got だけ plus a negative in the first half. Therefore making "not only" a seemingly natural translation when really the only natural correspondent to "not only" is しか. The explanation I got from the Japanese person I talked to was that なく is a shortening/substitution for 聞こえなく.

"by means of" is the most encompassing translation for the contextual particle で. There are a few other popular ones, like "at", but で, に and just particles/prepositions in any language are notoriously broad in semantic scope. I used "by means of" in that particular transitional translation because that is how (context) the girl can only hear him.

I'll admit it was pretty petty to invalidate your translation, when really any expression of "there's just your voice; show yourself" will do. And there are a lot of natural ways to put this into English. I still see nothing wrong with the original natural translation I posted, "I can only hear your voice! Show me your face!!" This doesn't sound stilted to me. But then I've never found myself suddenly standing in the middle of a futuristic desert talking to a disembodied voice. I hoping you haven't either.

As far as format, what I would be willing to consider is putting the natural translation directly underneath the transitional. I was merely following my natural train of thought -- direct translation to transitional, then I work out various expressional problems and finally pose a natural translation. Maybe I could keep it where it is, but bold it? The thing is, I see more value and sense in the literal translation than the final, natural English one, whereas I think you, like most people see it the other way around.

And thank you for your kind words concerning the project. It was very disheartening for the first posts concerning it to lambast it without proposing any changes.
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby IkimashoZ » Wed 12.28.2005 3:49 am

I made some revisions. I think the real issue here is transitional translations are harder to make than direct or natural ones.
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby AJBryant » Wed 12.28.2005 1:31 pm

"Heaven is where god is" is your idea of a good traslation??


Well, since that's what the Japanese sentence says -- YES, it is.

"Border guard" is the best you can do??


Let me put it to you this way. I'm a Japanese historian. That's how "sakimori" is translated in hsitorical texts. How's that?

I'm very confused about what your particular "philosophy of translation" is. Your suggestions, to be quite honest, seem abysmally dull to me, whereas the Japanese evokes concepts that have no reference in English.


Dude, it's this simple. I've been a professional translator of Japanese for over ten years. My MA thesis was a translation and commentary of a 14th C. Japanese tale. My philosophy of translation is TO FRIKKIN TRANSLATE. Turn the material into ENGLISH, and moreover, into the correct English for the Japanese original.

"Voice only [con.] lackingly figure [obj.] showing!!!" isn't English. It's gibberish. WHat's more, it's not even a decent reflection of the Japanese.

I would prefer a colorful description to a painfully accurate one. BTW, 'palsgrave' is English. Obscure Japanese words should have obscure English equivalents.


Sakimori isn't "obscure."

Also, maybe you're smart enough to figure out that 見せて has the same meaning as 見せてください (save for the lost formalitly), but I can clearly remember a time when I saw this structure for the first time and was completely confused as to what was "supposed" to come at the end


NOTHING is "supposed to" come at the end. Something can be tacked on, but it's neither required nor needed.

I'm not saying my translation is perfect. In fact in the line you mentioned, I belive I misread it the first time and upon looking at it again, I'm ready to make some changes.


Perfect? I didn't see anything that even indicated you understood the sentences in the first place.

"not only" is deceptive in English though because of the difference between だけ and しか. "not only" is more truly しか. The sentence is difficult because you've got だけ plus a negative in the first half. Therefore making "not only" a seemingly natural translation when really the only natural correspondent to "not only" is しか. The explanation I got from the Japanese person I talked to was that なく is a shortening/substitution for 聞こえなく.


The point of that whole sentence is that the person being spoken to isn't showing himself, but he *is* making his presence known by his voice (we've all seen scenes like that in dozens of movies; think of the good guys wandering about, looking around while we hear the villain taunting them). "Koe dake de naku, sugata wo misete" is perfectly Japanese for what we might hear in such a setting: "Don't just talk, SHOW yourself!" or "Don't just talk, come out!"

There is a reason translating is an art. You have to take things from one idiom and place them in another (often culturally very different) one. But the first thing is, you have to have a good enough grasp of the target language to know what would be appropriate in a given situation. Of course, you also have to have a really good grasp of the base language to know exactly what is intended. If you think of "ikanakereba narimasen" as "it won't do if you don't go" instead of it's colloquial function of "you have to go", you'll not be able to translate well.


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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby IkimashoZ » Wed 12.28.2005 11:31 pm

Let me put it to you this way. I'm a Japanese historian. That's how "sakimori" is translated in hsitorical texts. How's that?


Manga are not historical texts. THEY'RE FREAKING COMIC BOOKS.

Dude, it's this simple. I've been a professional translator of Japanese for over ten years. My MA thesis was a translation and commentary of a 14th C. Japanese tale. My philosophy of translation is TO FRIKKIN TRANSLATE. Turn the material into ENGLISH, and moreover, into the correct English for the Japanese original.

"Voice only [con.] lackingly figure [obj.] showing!!!" isn't English. It's gibberish. WHat's more, it's not even a decent reflection of the Japanese.


I guess I better get used to dealing with people like you now, because I'll probably be surrounded by others like you in grad school. I'm not going to bother attacking your grasp of the Japanese language. In fact, I'll be perfectly honest with you -- yours is probably better than mine. And maybe you've got an MA and I don't. But you know what else you've got that I don't have? Your head up your ass.

Sakimori isn't "obscure."


Really? Even though it's not in any of my J-E/E-J dictionaries and not on alc.co.jp or popjisyo.com? Is that why I had to use a J-J dictionary to find the meaning? The meaning might be pretty obvious to someone special enough to have been to grad school and has studied Japanese historical texts, but I'll bet you if I walked down the street and asked ten people in my town of 8,000 in Nara what 防人 means, most of them would probably have no clue.

NOTHING is "supposed to" come at the end. Something can be tacked on, but it's neither required nor needed.


To someone first learning the language, there is. If you have a problem with the way I worded it, say so instead of attacking my intelligence. It makes you not only imprecise, but also a dick.

Perfect? I didn't see anything that even indicated you understood the sentences in the first place.


Do you feel like a big person? Did that boost your ego to pick on someone with less professional expertise than you? Way to go.

There is a reason translating is an art. You have to take things from one idiom and place them in another (often culturally very different) one. But the first thing is, you have to have a good enough grasp of the target language to know what would be appropriate in a given situation. Of course, you also have to have a really good grasp of the base language to know exactly what is intended. If you think of "ikanakereba narimasen" as "it won't do if you don't go" instead of it's colloquial function of "you have to go", you'll not be able to translate well.


No, you're wrong. Understanding 行かなければいけない as "not going doesn't work" is merely DIFFERENT from the way you concieve of the language. It's not bad, it's not wrong, and if you think otherwise, very simply, this makes you an elitist. I'm not about to trash on how you percieve the language, and don't you ever dare insult me again by trashing how I percieve it.

I posted originally looking for people who wish to help me with my project -- other people interested in achieving understanding of the language. You don't want this. You want hold knowledge over everyone else's heads, so that you can feel superior to everyone else struggling to learn the language you've "mastered" so well. You insist that your translation is the only correct translation because it fulfills some sick desire your empty, souless husk of an ego yearns for.

Well, sorry, this doesn't work on me. At this point, if you want to propose advice, I'm not posting it. You may be able to explain meanings to me that I don't yet understand, and you may have more experience with the language than I. But, no talent or skill that you could ever have will compensate for that fact that you've shown yourself to be an arrogant, hateful windbag.
Last edited by IkimashoZ on Wed 12.28.2005 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby Harisenbon » Thu 12.29.2005 2:54 am

Ok, we all need to calm down again, I'm afraid.

ikimashoZ, you can't let Tony's comments get to you. As much as people don't like to hear it, there is a pecking order in society, ESPECIALLY when concerning Japan. If you want to get good at Japanese, you have to learn some of the societal rules. This includes putting up with comments that you may consider rude from those higher up than you.

Tony has been studying Japanese for longer than you or I have been alive. He has been a profesisional translator for quite a long time. He knows the ropes, he knows the language. He is also rather highly respected as a translator and Japanese historian among many of the people I know. To put this is in Japanese terms, he is our senpai, and no matter how much you hate what he says, you're going to need to learn to put up with it if you want to get anywhere.

That being said, I completely agree with almost all of what Tony said. His first comments were not rude, even if they didn't offer any constructive criticism. Not everyone is going to be willing/able to give you constructive criticism. You have to make the criticim you get be constructive for you.

As for some specific points:

No, you're wrong. Understanding 行かなければいけない as "not going doesn't work" is merely DIFFERENT from the way you concieve of the language. It's not bad, it's not wrong, and if you think otherwise, very simply, this makes you an elitist


I really think that "no going doesn't work" is a BAD translation. Now, if you think that in your head, that's one thing, I'm going to bash how you think, but if you were to then offer that as a translation, then you should look for another line of work. I would never hire anyone who wrote an english sentence like that, and I'm sure many employers would think the same. Write that as an answer on a test, and it'll get marked wrong. It's simply not good English.

Manga are not historical texts. THEY'RE FREAKING COMIC BOOKS.


Well, there are many manga that are aimed at teaching history to children, so in some cases, they are in fact historical texts. There are many terms in them that are not used in everyday conversation, but are readily understood by elementary school students.

Really? Even though it's not in any of my J-E/E-J dictionaries and not on alc.co.jp or popjisyo.com?


Really? Border Guard isn't in my E->J Dictionary, but it is in my E->E Dictionary. Imagine that. Most people don't use the word border guard in normal conversation, but if you look at the word, you sure as hell know what it means. same with 防人. People may not know it if they hear it, or even the reading of the kanji (my wife didn't), but one look at it and you know it means a guy who defends somethings, probably a town. I have no idea what Palsgrave means. I'm a gamer and I don't know that word. That tells you something. *grin*

Yeah.. that's about it.
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby IkimashoZ » Thu 12.29.2005 9:07 am

IkimashoZ, you can't let Tony's comments get to you. As much as people don't like to hear it, there is a pecking order in society, ESPECIALLY when concerning Japan. If you want to get good at Japanese, you have to learn some of the societal rules. This includes putting up with comments that you may consider rude from those higher up than you.


In Japan and with regards to the Japanese people, I am more than willing to make allowances for the fact that I am more a "guest" in their country than anything else. My position is not permanent. I have an important job, and this makes me an important member of the community, but a temporary one nonetheless. As a result, in this community, I am willing to make allowances in order to teach them about other cultures while showing respect for thier culture at the same time.

Now, unless I am mistaken, Tony is not Japanese, and even if he was, if I were to treat him differently in an international forum such as this one because of his race, that would make me racist. As a result, I will tolerate narrow-minded, egotistical attacks on my intellect no more or less than I would anywhere in my home country. I doubt I would even have much more lenience for such an attack here in Japan, though my reaction certainly wouldn't be as blunt or as eloquent (mostly because I'd be speaking Japanese).

Tony has been studying Japanese for longer than you or I have been alive. He has been a profesisional translator for quite a long time. He knows the ropes, he knows the language. He is also rather highly respected as a translator and Japanese historian among many of the people I know.


Good for him. I have to wonder though Tony, if you're such an advanced learner, why on Earth you'd bother hanging out on boards full of beginning and intermediate learners, if all you want is to tell them how wrong they are whenever someone tries something new and different.

I would hope Tony, that you've taken at least some linguistics to get where you are. All the linguistics I was taught in college made it very clear that words exist in a kind of quantum state as far as meaning is concerned. This is why we have semantics as well as syntax. As such, there is no black and white as far as translation is concerned.

And unless the world plans on reverting back to despotism sometime soon, NO ONE, no matter what their "status" can make diminutive comments of another human being and not expect to get called out on it. That's just plain idiocy.

Not everyone is going to be willing/able to give you constructive criticism. You have to make the criticim you get be constructive for you.


So I should let people purposelessly attack me without comment?? Sorry, I disagree.

I really think that "no going doesn't work" is a BAD translation. Now, if you think that in your head, that's one thing, I'm going to bash how you think, but if you were to then offer that as a translation, then you should look for another line of work. I would never hire anyone who wrote an english sentence like that, and I'm sure many employers would think the same. Write that as an answer on a test, and it'll get marked wrong. It's simply not good English.


Nowhere on my site did I ever purport that any of the literal or transitional translations were to be parsed as English. In fact, there is a link clearly posted on the main page that explains thier respective functions.

These literal translations are the kind of information that would have sped up my learning of the Japanese language immensely, had they been available to me when I was a beginning learner. It's the best way I know of for myself to structure grammar in my head so that I can produce the language quickly and correctly. I feel it's absurd to expect that I would not be offended by belligerent, rude, baseless attacks on my work.

Well, there are many manga that are aimed at teaching history to children, so in some cases, they are in fact historical texts.


I hope you're not purporting that this is true of Waq Waq. :) But yes, you're right. I am aware that such manga exists. And, if I were to translate such manga, English would obvious make different demands on the vocabulary in that context.

I suppose Tony, you're so used to translating historical texts, that you've forgotten that in this case 防人 is not a historical term. It's a "fun" reference to history, thrown in in the hopes that readers may actually go out and find out about the real 防人. English literature does much the same thing. I could probably make a list of fifty or so terms with a historical reference from the Harry Potter series alone. If this sense of connection to a history is the responce evoked by the Japanese text, why shouldn't the English do the same for English-speaking readers?

In my opinion, translation isn't about making money, adhering to painfully stringent codes of accuracy or meeting a deadline. It's partly about exploring a new way of thinking, and mostly about having fun.

And you, Tony, have sucked a large portion of the fun out of my project. Congratulations. I hope you feel good about yourself.

I have no idea what Palsgrave means. I'm a gamer and I don't know that word. That tells you something. *grin*


That tells me you should go look it up. :)

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Last edited by IkimashoZ on Thu 12.29.2005 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby IkimashoZ » Thu 12.29.2005 10:31 am

I made one small change to the title of chapter 1 to reflect the criticism posted here. I did not cite the source because I couldn't find any specific criticism of that line polite enough to cite.

I still feel that because of the archaic forms in use in the Japanese, older, more formal sounding English is appropriate. If you want your sentence posted Tony, suggest it respectfully and I'll post it. If you don't want to help, then butt out. You've given me quite enough "help" already.
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby AJBryant » Thu 12.29.2005 12:00 pm

Ikimashioz, if you don't like the tone, it's because you are the one who is creating it. Your response to my first post was over the top, arrogant, and insulting. I responded in kind.

Essentially, you're behaving with an arrogance that is out of proportion for what you are doing. It is clear from what you have written that not only do you NOT know, you don't know enough to know that you don't know. And when people try to tell you, YOU get offended or ignore the advice.

Why do I hang out here? Because I enjoy helping people. I help people who LISTEN. I help people who EXHIBIT A CLUE. You have done neither.

You mention being in Japan with "an important job." I hope your behavior in that job isn't parallel to your behavior here. You also mention having been to college. That's quite a surprise to me, as you act like a high school kid with more ego and testosterone than brains. Look at the way you responded to my first post. That doesn't display much maturity to me.

So what do you want? You want me to spend a whole afternoon correcting your site, or should I just point out that there are errors, give an example of a rather obvious one, and suggest you try harder?

You really have to learn to lighten up and step back, or your life will be one long conflict after another. Trust me. I've seen it happen.

Manga are not historical texts. THEY'RE FREAKING COMIC BOOKS.


Irrelevant. The issue is vocabulary. You want to use "palsgrave" which isn't seen OUTSIDE historical texts, after all. Wouldn't you rather have people *understand* the translations instead of asking "what the hell"?

I guess I better get used to dealing with people like you now, because I'll probably be surrounded by others like you in grad school. .... But you know what else you've got that I don't have? Your head up your ass.


Sweet. That attitude will take you far. You just keep reacting that way when people point out your errors. You notice in my first post there was no insult, nothing demeaning. I even said I was *sorry* for Chrissake, that you had more work to do. You, not I, are the one with the attitude.

Really? Even though it's not in any of my J-E/E-J dictionaries and not on alc.co.jp or popjisyo.com? Is that why I had to use a J-J dictionary to find the meaning?


Considering that Japanese is the critical language here, it's no surprise. You want to translate a J word, you USE a J dictionary.

I didn't see anything that even indicated you understood the sentences in the first place.
Do you feel like a big person? Did that boost your ego to pick on someone with less professional expertise than you? Way to go.


Dude, that's not picking on. Picking on is saying "you're ugly and your mother dresses you funny." That's a simple statement of fact. Nothing that I saw indicated any deep understanding (or anything beyond a shallow one) of Japanese. It's that simple. You didn't exhibit the skills. You may have them -- I don't know. But you didn't exhibit them. And from your responses to Harisenbon and me here, I doubt that you DO have them.

No, you're wrong. Understanding 行かなければいけない as "not going doesn't work" is merely DIFFERENT from the way you concieve of the language. It's not bad, it's not wrong, and if you think otherwise, very simply, this makes you an elitist. I'm not about to trash on how you percieve the language, and don't you ever dare insult me again by trashing how I percieve it.


I can tell you this. If I were running a translation house in Japan, I wouldn't be hiring you. You are too tempermental, take things too personally, and you don't have the level of understanding of what translation requires and what translation is. Believe it or not, that's friendly advice. You need to step back and reread this whole thread and see where the problems are.

I posted originally looking for people who wish to help me with my project -- other people interested in achieving understanding of the language. You don't want this. You want hold knowledge over everyone else's heads, so that you can feel superior to everyone else struggling to learn the language you've "mastered" so well. You insist that your translation is the only correct translation because it fulfills some sick desire your empty, souless husk of an ego yearns for.


You really don't sound stable, dude. Yeah, that's why I'm here answering questions. That's why I'm on the About.com Japanese language forum ( http://tinyurl.com/8mz4f ). That's why I have my own Japanese language forum ( http://forums.delphiforums.com/nihongoforum/start ). That's why I'm on several Usenet groups for Japanese language study. I spend an hour or so a day answering questions and helping people. But I help people who can be helped.

I thought you could, too. That's why I visited your site in the first place. That's why I pointed out the first error. That's why I said you needed to try harder. It's one way to gauge people -- see how they will respond, see what level of work they understand, how much help they will need and can accept at one go.

You could have asked for help then. You could have said, "you're right, that's bad English." You could have done any number of things, But you acted like a school boy who was told recess is over. That is really disappointing. And it speaks poorly of you. You started with the insults and name calling. THAT is why I immediately assumed I was talking to a kid. It's the old "if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck" phenomenon.

I suppose Tony, you're so used to translating historical texts, that you've forgotten that in this case 防人 is not a historical term. It's a "fun" reference to history, thrown in in the hopes that readers may actually go out and find out about the real 防人.


No, I'm not. And no, it's not. It's used because the term is a simple vocabulary item to fit the need of the text. The person is a border guard, so they call him a border guard. You want a more obscure English term? "March warden" or "warder of the marches" would do.

In my opinion, translation isn't about making money, adhering to painfully stringent codes of accuracy or meeting a deadline. It's partly about exploring a new way of thinking, and mostly about having fun.


That is very true. ;) Much of the stuff I play with is VERY uncommercial. Translators wouldn't do it if they didn't love the material. Wait... let me rephrase that. I know a lot of professional translators who hate the material, but love the money.

I think it really depends on what you're doing. If you're independently wealthy and have the time, you can translate whatever you want and take all the time you want. My personal projects follow this pattern. But the paying jobs all had deadlines. And they weren't all fun (oy...).

Tony
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby IkimashoZ » Thu 12.29.2005 8:45 pm

Why do I hang out here? Because I enjoy helping people. I help people who LISTEN. I help people who EXHIBIT A CLUE. You have done neither.

You also mention having been to college. That's quite a surprise to me, as you act like a high school kid with more ego and testosterone than brains. Look at the way you responded to my first post. That doesn't display much maturity to me.


See, I don't care who you are. This kind of attitude is unacceptable. You act like I'm the one who offended you, but I have never written anything nearly this rude about you. Well, except maybe the "head up your ass" comment. That one was below the belt, and I'm sorry. The rest of it? Plain and simple observation.

You mention being in Japan with "an important job." I hope your behavior in that job isn't parallel to your behavior here.


It's never been an issue in Japan, because people in Japan don't generally seem to have a problem treating me with the basic respect any one person should show another. This is something you're obviously incapable of.

My first responce to your post contained nothing even mildly inflammatory or insulting, unless you are (as you have shown yourself to be) overly self-absorbed in the validity of your own work as the "one true, right way of translation". I had no idea you were a professional translator, especially since, as I noted in my first posts, your proposed translations were and still are, in my opinion, painfully dull! I have read all four volumes of Waq Waq and I can't imagine the introductory installment, which is meant to intrigue readers' imaginations and draw them into the story being titled "Heaven is Where God Is." If I read this on the cover of a translated manga, my responce would be a snort and a "well, DUH."

Considering that Japanese is the critical language here, it's no surprise. You want to translate a J word, you USE a J dictionary


Because, of course, it's standard practice to leave common, everyday words out of E-J/J-E dictionaries...

That's a simple statement of fact.


I know my what my strengths are and I know where my skills are. The problem is not that something's been translated "wrong", it's that something's been translated in a way that defies your idea of the "one true way" of translation. I'm not denying that there's a particular skill involved here. The skill of translating with 100% accuracy is a good skill to have. Honestly, I wish I had it as it would be useful. I don't have it now, and I know that. I have never pretended that I do. If I were to want a job translating, you're right, I would probably have to conform to this standard, and become as good as you at that particular skill.

But you know what, that's completely irrelevent here and I wish you'd see it. The point of my site is not to produce publishing house quality translations. In fact, I don't care about that kind of quality at all! I care about analyzing grammatical structures and representing them in a form that will give beginning - intermediate learners access to them. That's it.

As such, your accusation that I "haven't understood a thing" is insulting and rude. I do understand about 70-80% of everything I read in a manga, and the fact that you would suggest otherwise in a public forum just because I disagree with your precious philosophy suggests that my original observation that you are an elitist was correct.

I can tell you this. If I were running a translation house in Japan, I wouldn't be hiring you.


I wouldn't want to work for you, doing any job. As far as translation goes, it's interesting enough, but not for me as far a career is concerned. And you can keep your disparaging remarks about my skill to yourself, thanks.

You need to step back and reread this whole thread and see where the problems are.


I have. I stand by everything I wrote here (save for the one comment I noted above), and I'm still apalled at your arrogance.

I spend an hour or so a day answering questions and helping people. But I help people who can be helped.


How many souls have you managed to convert thus far?

You could have said, "you're right, that's bad English."


Well, looking back, seeing as how the lines you did quote from my site were direct and transitional translations only, I'll say it now. You're right. Those lines are bad English. And you know what else? (This is the last time I'm going to freaking explain this). THEY'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE!! Please hit the big blue link on my main page that explains thier purpose... *sigh*

You could have done any number of things, But you acted like a school boy who was told recess is over. That is really disappointing. And it speaks poorly of you. You started with the insults and name calling. THAT is why I immediately assumed I was talking to a kid. It's the old "if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck" phenomenon.


If this is your interpretation of what has occured on this thread, I feel sorry for you. It's also mildly amusing in that I believe it was you who accused me of not being able to read between the lines.

No, I'm not. And no, it's not. It's used because the term is a simple vocabulary item to fit the need of the text. The person is a border guard, so they call him a border guard. You want a more obscure English term? "March warden" or "warder of the marches" would do.


Hahaha! A decent, quotable, suggestion... admist a sea of insult and egotism. Thanks, but no thanks.

Here's what it boils down to -- you've already insulted me enough. And honestly, I'm wasting precious time defending myself from abuse here that I could be using to pursue endeavers that actually develop me as a person. On the surface, you say you want me to develop as a person. What I can tell from what you've written and how you write, is that you really want to tell me how to think about the language, not give me advice and information that will help me to concieve of the language better.

I'm done here.

- Matt
Last edited by IkimashoZ on Thu 12.29.2005 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ist das einen Kanji, dass ich gefunden habe??
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