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Posted some Manga

Have a textbook or grammar book that you find particularly helpful? What about a learning tip to share with others?

RE: Posted some Manga

Postby Harisenbon » Thu 12.29.2005 9:01 pm

ったく、もういいよ、
好きにしろよ。
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby ryuubu » Thu 12.29.2005 9:19 pm

Haha ooo this is gooooood. lol
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby Infidel » Fri 12.30.2005 2:11 am

Dude. Ok, I'm just saying this because it was implied by Haris and Tony but never stated specifically. Since it was not, it looks to have been lost in the background noise of emotional headbutting.

So two points.

1. Translation is about translating the meaning not the words. You want to convey the attitude and purpose, anything translated should sound natural after translation. Also, Manga is highly colloquial. You want your manga translations to be as concise as possible. "By way of your voice" = "say" Remember it must sound natural. If it looks awkward then you know without asking that it is a bad translation.

2. J-E/E-J dictionary. Sorry, These dictionaries only list common or very common words. If you don't see a word in a J-E/E-J dictionary, that only means that the word is not extremly common, it miight be uncommon or new. The J-E dictionary is really a "starter" dictionary, like a bike with training wheels. There's nothing wrong with using one, but they are not authoritive by any means and the whole purpose of using one is to one day not need one.

One more thing.

Dude. Chill. If someone says that your translations do not indicate you understand. That isn't an insult. Stop taking it as such. Just blush for getting ahead of yourself and study harder. This is an obvious case of attempting to run before you've got crawling down pat.
Last edited by Infidel on Fri 12.30.2005 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby aradu » Fri 12.30.2005 3:31 am

I really like how you present and translate this manga. It's really helpful for me as a beginner! The way you structure it by first doing a completely literal translation (also including the particles with corresponding names, such as [dir.], [from], etc.), then a more "Japanese" way of saying the sentence, lastly an English translation, is really great. That's exactly how I would like textbooks to work, which the ones I've checked, doesn't. They only show a Japanese sentence, then the English translation. You're left without any clue how they could get the Japanese sentence to mean something like that. This manga is completely different. You definitely get a feeling of how to say things in Japanese.

Do you know any textbooks that works in this way as you present your translations?

I would definitely want to see more of this, as it's very helpful. Keep up the good work!
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby IkimashoZ » Fri 12.30.2005 3:41 am

aradu wrote:
I really like how you present and translate this manga. It's really helpful for me as a beginner! The way you structure it by first doing a completely literal translation (also including the particles with corresponding names, such as [dir.], [from], etc.), then a more "Japanese" way of saying the sentence, lastly an English translation, is really great. That's exactly how I would like textbooks to work, which the ones I've checked, doesn't. They only show a Japanese sentence, then the English translation. You're left without any clue how they could get the Japanese sentence to mean something like that. This manga is completely different. You definitely get a feeling of how to say things in Japanese.

Do you know any textbooks that works in this way as you present your translations?

I would definitely want to see more of this, as it's very helpful. Keep up the good work!


Thank you! I've actually based my system of literal translation on a book called Japanese in Mangaland (Marc Bernabe, 2004). He does something similar, although for me, he's not quite literal enough. :)

And A Basic Dictionary of Japanese Grammar as well as An Intermediate Dictionary of Japanese Grammar are good, even though they don't provide workbook style questions. I recommend those too. You can find them on thejapanshop.net.

1. Translation is about translating the meaning not the words.


I agree. This is why I made it very clear in my last post that THE PURPOSE OF MY SITE IS NOT TO PROVIDE 100% ACCURATE TRANSLATIONS OF MANGA. IT'S TO TALK ABOUT JAPANESE GRAMMAR.

2. J-E/E-J dictionary. Sorry, These dictionaries only list common or very common words.


*sigh* Again, I agree. This is why it is idiotic to call an obscure word like 防人 "commonplace", since it doesn't exist in such a dictionary.

Dude. Chill. If someone says that your translations do not indicate you understand. That isn't an insult. Stop taking it as such. Just blush for getting ahead of yourself and study harder. This is an obvious case of attempting to run before you've got crawling down pat.


No, it's an obvious case of elitism and egotism and if you can't see that, I feel sorry for you.
Last edited by IkimashoZ on Fri 12.30.2005 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby CajunCoder » Fri 12.30.2005 2:24 pm

IkimashouZ, Tony... I think both are over reacting.
One philisophy I've taken on, is... I honestly dont care much about what others think of me, if I do not know them personally and consider them good friends. So, if some random person flames me on a forum, I could care less. I don't respond in anger, I just read what they have to say for what it is. Sometimes despite their poor way of presenting their ideas/opinions, I still find somethings to be of use; granted Im less likely to appreciate their view if they present it in an insulting manner.
You're letting people affect you too much.

That being said, could we stop insulting everyone and get back on topic? Because I find this project very interesting...

I find your site to be extremely helpful, and I love your philosophy of direct translation! I find the wording of japanese sentences to be *extremely* confusing at time, and I have a very small vocabulary, but none the less I like to understand grammar and wording in japanese, and this is what your site does. Its already helped me understand several things which I hear/see often, and despite knowing the words or particles, still had no idea of their meaning. I like to understand things in their literacy, and why they are as they are.
I do have a suggestion/nit-picks, which I kind of hate to make, but anyway...
The te-form of verbs is of course a very common form of command, though I dont think it is rude in familiar situations. At any rate, I dont see why you translated it "showing" instead of "show"? I think show would be the best direct translation.

But small errors, even when abundant, dont matter that much... Good to correct, but its better to try and make a few errors, than not to try at all. Granted I think people are nitpicking a little too much at a few things discussed here...

Anyway, good luck with this, and I look forward to seeing this project progress!
Last edited by CajunCoder on Fri 12.30.2005 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby Tessen » Fri 12.30.2005 5:07 pm

:o 絶句 
このスレッド
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby IkimashoZ » Fri 12.30.2005 10:25 pm

At any rate, I dont see why you translated it "showing" instead of "show"? I think show would be the best direct translation.


My reasoning for this is that all the instances in which I see the te form of verb used, it seems to indicate some sort of continuation of the sentence despite the fact that a verb has appeared (this ususally means that the sentence is now complete). They -te form kind of says, "hold on, there's a bit more coming". That's why I almost always use the -ing form of the verb in the very literal translation, because it has the same function in English, although its parameters are usuage are completely different.

I see your point very though. It's actual function in the instance you point out is the imperative, because of the implied ください (let's please not fight over this; if you see the structure as having an implied ください like I do, or if you feel that the te form alone does all the work, that's fine; if both interpretations lead to the same exact meaning, then how you get there is only relevent to you, individually, in what best helps you produce and understand the language).

If I added an -ing entry to my list of terms, do you think that would help, or should I stick to the literal function??

- Matt
Last edited by IkimashoZ on Fri 12.30.2005 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby CajunCoder » Fri 12.30.2005 11:43 pm

Well, one crazy idea that I was thinking of, is to keep the conjugations and simply translate the root word, so it would look something like this:

私は車を買ったから、今お金がない。
IはCarをBoughtったBecause,Now MoneyがExistない

As crazy as it looks, this is far more readable and helpful to me.  Of course, you'll want to cover a lot of conjugations that you think people might have a problem with, and/or give literal translations for them (but not as part of the actual text)、 Such as なければならない。

Japanese grammar simply cant be represented well in english, so simply keep the grammar and conjugations the same, and change the vocab to english.  This makes it very easy to seperate and understand the two.
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby IkimashoZ » Sat 12.31.2005 1:48 am

It might be fun to add that as another level of translation between the actual japanese and the direct translation. The only problem I can think of is that some particles have an immense scope. で and に for example. There are also two different kinds of から (one meaning is "from" another is "because").

I like it though. Mind if I use it?
Last edited by IkimashoZ on Sat 12.31.2005 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby CajunCoder » Mon 01.02.2006 1:46 pm

True, but it'd certainly help with mastering the particles.
Please do use it!
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby IkimashoZ » Fri 01.06.2006 7:45 am

Winter break has hit me. I'll add the recommended changes as well as new pages after the 15th. Thanks again!
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby OT86 » Fri 01.06.2006 9:49 am

Ikimasho - first off I think that what you've done is a great idea and it shows some good initiative on your part.

Also, while i think that criticism is a highly necessary stage in the learning process (trial and error, etc), i also think that a few criticisms levelled against the author aren't 100% justified.

To quote Tony - "You need to work harder"

I dont see what effort has to do with Ikimasho's translation. He's clearly put a LOT of effort into it, regardless of the quality or accuracy of his translations. It's a question of understanding, or perhaps lack of it. I'd like to encourage the Japanese veterans like Tony to help the newcomers out more.

He clearly spends a lot of time translating a manga and making a site detailing the process, only to be told his translation is all wrong by somebody with more experience. It could just be that people like Ikimasho represent the more dedicated members of this community.

It's not all about how much you get right, but actually having the confidence to try your best, despite what others might say. No language is easy to learn, and I wouldn't mind betting old Tony probably made bucketloads of mistakes when he was starting out. And remember that at no point does the author claim that his translation is 100% accurate.

Correct, by all means - But don't belittle. If you know better, offer your help. Show him where he went wrong in a polite way.

Simply saying "you need to work harder" isn't helping anyone. People like Tony are the kind that are looked up to here - the kind I'd want to ask for advice. But perhaps now I'd think twice before asking.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing how you progress with the translation.

/rant
Last edited by OT86 on Fri 01.06.2006 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby Infidel » Fri 01.06.2006 11:27 am

You know, I just don't get people anymore. You coments show you apparently didn't read this thread. Tony did correct, he did encourage, and Ikimasho and you apparently don't get it. He was completely polite. The problem here is some people don't seem to understand the difference between polite behavior and sycophancy.
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RE: Posted some Manga

Postby Harisenbon » Fri 01.06.2006 11:03 pm

It's not all about how much you get right, but actually having the confidence to try your best, despite what others might say.


Here here! You are so right. It doesn't matter how correct you are when you are reading and working for yourself. It's a growth process, and you need to do the best you can.

However. When you are proposing to teach someone else through the work you are doing you had better be SURE that what you are writing is correct. Or makes notes on sections you are not sure about. If people are learn your mistakes, thinking they are real, it will only hurt them.

Without disclaimers and such you get mistranslations like yasha means female demon put into THE LARGEST JAPANESE DICTIONARY ON THE WEB. (still pissed about that)
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