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Should I memorize all of the Kanji pronounciations?

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RE: Should I memorize all of the Kanji pronounciations?

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 11.15.2006 9:06 am

When you say he can "read and write both", do you mean that he can read a newspaper article or something like that? The only true measure of your kanji ability is how well you can read authentic Japanese text (or how well you can write a letter or something like that in Japanese). It doesn't matter how many shapes of kanji you can write on a piece of paper, or whether you can name on- and kun-yomi of a character.
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RE: Should I memorize all of the Kanji pronounciations?

Postby BigKahuna13 » Wed 11.15.2006 10:15 am

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
When you say he can "read and write both", do you mean that he can read a newspaper article or something like that? The only true measure of your kanji ability is how well you can read authentic Japanese text (or how well you can write a letter or something like that in Japanese). It doesn't matter how many shapes of kanji you can write on a piece of paper, or whether you can name on- and kun-yomi of a character.


Given the proliferation of computers being able to write kanji is rapidly becoming a skill of secondary importance.



Heisig II is how to derive readings based upon radicals which is far from worthless since you can make good guesses at readings of kanji you have never seen before.


Just curious, why do you consider that a useful skill - or useful to the point that you'd dedicate time to studying it? Personally, If I'm going to guess at the reading of a kanji, I'm eventually going to want to look the thing up to see if I'm right. If I'm going to have to look it up anyway, why bother with the memorization?

You'd be surprised at how much of that information you can pick up casually just by reading and looking up words that you don't know.
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RE: Should I memorize all of the Kanji pronounciations?

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 11.15.2006 10:29 am

I agree completely. Guessing at the reading of unknown characters is only a useful skill for advanced readers who only have occasional gaps in their knowledge. If you're having to guess the reading of 50% of the characters in a text, you're not going to be able to actually read it. By the time you get to the point where guessing the reading is useful to you, you should have a large enough bank of characters to be able to do it without someone explicitly telling you "If you see 中 in a character it's read ちゅう".

Given the proliferation of computers being able to write kanji is rapidly becoming a skill of secondary importance.


I think it's useful to have the ability to write a few hundred of the most commonly appearing characters; you do sometimes need to handwrite notes to people, and when you do it looks kind of silly if you write it in all kana. But learning to write the entire Jouyou set is a waste of time until much later in your studies; this is another major reason why I think Heisig's book is bad. I was just wondering what the other poster meant by "yes he can read and write both"; whether by "write" he meant the person could actually write a dictated Japanese sentence or compose a letter, or whether it just meant he could write some random characters on a paper.
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RE: Should I memorize all of the Kanji pronounciations?

Postby archaeous » Wed 11.15.2006 12:54 pm

Well when he learns a word it is exceedingly rapid since in many cases can ignore the kana as the kanji makes more sense. After 1 year of study though he can get the general gist of newspapers even if he doesn't know as much of the vocab as some who have studied longer.

I must say though that using ONLY a kanji book and not learning any grammar sentance structure is a bad idea, thats why I am not learning from Heisig 1 (not to mention the order he chooses is completely messed up some of the first you learn are past the 2000 point on most common kanji). However I think a solid kanji basis early is really helping out in tandem with other learning even if they aren't 100% tied.

I personally went through Genki 1. I know all 145 kanji "officially" used in that book. Beyond that I am also going through the order you learn in Japanese school and I am learing 200-220 atm and know about 40 more from the book. This way I fill in common kanji the school method skips but it is still using the same method just modified to me.

So in a sence I agree that just learning kanji with NO Japanese experience is a bad idea but when all of them you are learning you can make some sort of connection I like learning with a very very heavy kanji basis.

I should mention that the guy who is at at least the 1945 took 1 year then skipped out of the next 2 years from self study. So he is a bit......unusual.
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RE: Should I memorize all of the Kanji pronounciations?

Postby Schattenjedi » Wed 11.15.2006 1:30 pm

archaeous wrote:
I should mention that the guy who is at at least the 1945 took 1 year then skipped out of the next 2 years from self study. So he is a bit......unusual.


Huh?
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RE: Should I memorize all of the Kanji pronounciations?

Postby two_heads_talking » Wed 11.15.2006 1:56 pm

LEARN your kanji in level 4, 3, 2, and one orders.. http://www.thejapanesepage.com/kanji/list.php?jlpt=4

that for example is a link taken from the upper left hand part of your screen called KANJI.. click there and get the list.. then learn thos kanji and their readings.. when you are proficient with those, move to level 3 and so on.. soon, you too will be able to lrn2nihongo and will be able to help others find that elusive button to press.

In the meantime, you can also purchase textbooks or if you make it to japan, get ahold of the elementary school books, with explanations in full Kanji and kana.. good luck and don't get run over by the bulls

BigKahuna13 wrote:
Yudan Taiteki wrote:
Heisig II is how to derive readings based upon radicals which is far from worthless since you can make good guesses at readings of kanji you have never seen before.


Just curious, why do you consider that a useful skill - or useful to the point that you'd dedicate time to studying it? Personally, If I'm going to guess at the reading of a kanji, I'm eventually going to want to look the thing up to see if I'm right. If I'm going to have to look it up anyway, why bother with the memorization?

You'd be surprised at how much of that information you can pick up casually just by reading and looking up words that you don't know.


well, I will take a stab here, the only way I know to look up Kanji is by the radicals. There may be other ways, but I am not aware of them. therefore, memorizing the radicals (even if you aren't sure what they are called) will at least help find the kanji. I do believe one can augment radical look up with stroke count as well.
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RE: Should I memorize all of the Kanji pronounciations?

Postby AJBryant » Wed 11.15.2006 1:59 pm

Image

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RE: Should I memorize all of the Kanji pronounciations?

Postby two_heads_talking » Wed 11.15.2006 2:01 pm

Tony I believe the caption should read.. I know two times the amount of kanji all you know..
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RE: Should I memorize all of the Kanji pronounciations?

Postby archaeous » Wed 11.15.2006 2:59 pm

Well I am up to 3 million Kanji now so that book won't help. Is there a more advanced version? I learned 2,999,800 in the past hour =/
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RE: Should I memorize all of the Kanji pronounciations?

Postby two_heads_talking » Wed 11.15.2006 3:15 pm

there is.. but if we tell you about it we will have to kill you...
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RE: Should I memorize all of the Kanji pronounciations?

Postby tanuki » Wed 11.15.2006 3:36 pm

Or kill yourselves?

---

By the way, Tony-san, it's very nice how you even pluralized "kanjis". :D
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RE: Should I memorize all of the Kanji pronounciations?

Postby AJBryant » Wed 11.15.2006 3:57 pm

Tony I believe the caption should read.. I know two times the amount of kanji all you know..


LOL! If I'd made it, it would. I snagged this from somewhere.

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RE: Should I memorize all of the Kanji pronounciations?

Postby BigKahuna13 » Wed 11.15.2006 9:16 pm

two_heads_talking wrote:

well, I will take a stab here, the only way I know to look up Kanji is by the radicals. There may be other ways, but I am not aware of them. therefore, memorizing the radicals (even if you aren't sure what they are called) will at least help find the kanji. I do believe one can augment radical look up with stroke count as well.


Yes but learning radicals is a different animal from learning readings. And even then I don't think setting out to study radicals is particularly useful. Spend any length of time looking at kanji and common elements - most of which are radicals - will become pretty obvious.
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