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learning.

Have a textbook or grammar book that you find particularly helpful? What about a learning tip to share with others?

RE: learning.

Postby Wakannai » Wed 12.12.2007 10:53 am

Actually my IME in Vista gave me 朝御飯 as a first choice, and also Genki gives the vocab with its full kanji too, which I thought was odd.


IME remembers any past selections you make. If it's first, that means it was the last selection you made.
RTK is all about patterns. It capitalizes on the patterns of the kanji so that they can be learned and remembered more easily than studying them by frequency, which has almost no pattern at all.


You're missing the point. It doesn't matter what order you learn numbers in a phone book. You're still learning numbers from a phone book. They can be in alphabetical order, by first name, by last name, by address, they could be in numerical number , by zip code. It doesn't matter what order they are learned if they are learned out of context. The brain will still register them as random numbers. Grouping them by more memorable patterns is just a memnonic. The word is still not alive, it is dead data. Like a phone number.
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RE: learning.

Postby yukamina » Wed 12.12.2007 3:15 pm

Wakannai wrote:Learning a new kanji, its reading, and associating it with only one word takes longer and more effort than learning 2 new words.
Once you already know a kanji, this is no longer true, but prioritizing kanji ultimately slows you down dramatically. Later, when you see a kanji associated with a word you already know, memorizing it requires far less effort than when the kanji was first learned.

Studying efficiently is key to reducing the frustration of learning a new language.

It's less about prioritizing kanji and more about learning words in the way they'll actually be used(in writing, not speaking). Some words you'll find in hiragana, but open another book and those same words will be in kanji. Kanji aren't so impossible that you should avoid learning them! I hope not everyone studying here is an absolute beginner.

Wakannai wrote:
You're missing the point. It doesn't matter what order you learn numbers in a phone book. You're still learning numbers from a phone book. They can be in alphabetical order, by first name, by last name, by address, they could be in numerical number , by zip code. It doesn't matter what order they are learned if they are learned out of context. The brain will still register them as random numbers. Grouping them by more memorable patterns is just a memnonic. The word is still not alive, it is dead data. Like a phone number.

I hope you don't think kanji are as dry and useless as random phone numbers... If you don't like RTK, don't use it. Let other people decide for themselves. Why are we talking about RTK again?
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RE: learning.

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 12.12.2007 3:55 pm

RTK debate will come up any time an RTK supporter posts something recommending others to try Heisig -- perhaps the RTK debate topic should be stickied and linked to every time this comes up.

(Wakannai was not saying that kanji are dry and useless; he said that kanji learned out of context are dry and useless.)
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RE: learning.

Postby Wakannai » Wed 12.12.2007 4:07 pm

Kanji aren't so impossible that you should avoid learning them!


Sigh, why is a statement to not EXCLUSIVELY study kanji taken somehow to mean avoid kanji or not learn them at all? No one is saying this. Please don't argue against points that were not made.

I hope you don't think kanji are as dry and useless as random phone numbers...


sigh, I think you just have a reading comprehension issue. Is English not your native language? No one said that kanji are as dry and useless as random phone numbers. I did say that memorizing kanji from a list is treating kanji as dry random numbers.
If you don't like RTK, don't use it. Let other people decide for themselves. Why are we talking about RTK again?


First, You and Harako are the ones talking about RTK. I am talking about bad study habits as it relates to any system. It is your own fanaticism about RTK that filters words and only considers them in the context of RTK. Since this is a learning forum, we do not encourage people to pursue bad study habits.

Second, I said it doesn't matter how you memorize the kanji. You can use a JLPT list, a Newspaper frequency list, RTK, a dictionary, the Educational order. The order is irrelevant. The problem is the method. Studying random numbers in a phone book only gives you a connection between a number and a name. It doesn't give you a connection to the face or personality of the person that name and number are assigned to or the reasons you would be likely to use such a number to contact that person, and the best time to call. This is context. Without context, there is no knowledge, it's a trick. Like memorizing a phone book, and being able to rattle off a number from memory when you hear a name. In short, this is DATA it is not knowledge.

I think in analogies, so I have a very hard time explaining concepts except via the tool of analogy. This creates a big disconnect when I try to explain things to others that do not think in analogous terms But to understand my point, you have to understand the difference between data and knowledge. The brain retrieves data but it applies knowledge. Language is not a substitution drill of data, it is instead a creative process of merging the abstract with the concrete. Failure to understand this is failure to understand the nature of any language and greatly impedes the continued progress of knowledge.

It is important to study for the development of knowledge not the memorization of data.
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RE: learning.

Postby HarakoMeshi » Wed 12.12.2007 4:12 pm

Wakannai wrote:
You're missing the point. It doesn't matter what order you learn numbers in a phone book. You're still learning numbers from a phone book. They can be in alphabetical order, by first name, by last name, by address, they could be in numerical number , by zip code. It doesn't matter what order they are learned if they are learned out of context. The brain will still register them as random numbers. Grouping them by more memorable patterns is just a memnonic. The word is still not alive, it is dead data. Like a phone number.


You call it whatever you like to call it from your point of view as someone who hasn't done it.

I see them differently, and I put them into practice daily so I think I have a better idea of what they are and what they are not.

I think you greatly underestimate the positive effect of learning 'dry' kanji has on learning the 'wet' words, and in the end that's what I'm trying to optimize, learning words and how to read them.
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RE: learning.

Postby HarakoMeshi » Wed 12.12.2007 4:33 pm

I think in analogies, so I have a very hard time explaining concepts except via the tool of analogy. This creates a big disconnect when I try to explain things to others that do not think in analogous terms But to understand my point, you have to understand the difference between data and knowledge. The brain retrieves data but it applies knowledge.


The problem with analogies is that they sometimes carry overtones that you may not have intended.

I think that what Yukamina was trying to say is that the DATA of kanji + meaning from RTK is much more valuable than the data of learning phone numbers + names.

Sure it is learned disconnected from its Japanese words and pronunciations. Did anybody claim otherwise?

I think all that we're saying is that in this case, this DATA is not as useless as you think. It helps greatly to learn the useful connections.

I noticed you said you did not want to refer specifically to RTK, but RTK fell under your blanket criticizm of learning lists, which is why I disputed it. I don't think the same rules apply to all parts of language.
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RE: learning.

Postby kayuu » Wed 12.12.2007 4:42 pm

^^

Why don't you just learn the useful connections in the first place, might I ask? Instead of spending months learning the Kanji out of context and associating them with English words (the two previous points combined = a flawed learning system imo) just to make the job of learning the connections slightly easier when you probably could've learnt a lot more useful and practical things in the same amount of time.

I don't really fancy debating this, there's a whole different thread on the benefits/drawbacks of RTK, so I thought I'd just pop in with this, then gracefully pop back out :P
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RE: learning.

Postby Wakannai » Wed 12.12.2007 4:48 pm

I think all that we're saying is that in this case, is that this DATA is not as useless as you think. It helps greatly to learn the useful connections, later.


You really need to stop putting words in my mouth. I am not saying that DATA is useless and I'm certainly not thinking it. I am saying that data is less useful than knowledge and far less efficient. I'm not saying it's useless, I'm saying that a study course that emphasizes data over knowledge increases the effort required to understand language significantly.
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RE: learning.

Postby HarakoMeshi » Wed 12.12.2007 5:06 pm

Wakannai wrote:
I think all that we're saying is that in this case, is that this DATA is not as useless as you think. It helps greatly to learn the useful connections, later.


You really need to stop putting words in my mouth. I am not saying that DATA is useless and I'm certainly not thinking it. I am saying that data is less useful than knowledge and far less efficient. I'm not saying it's useless, I'm saying it adds unnecessary effort.


Putting words in your mouth? Hmm... a fine line.

H: "... this DATA is not as useless as you think..."
W: "I am saying that data is less useful than..."

So maybe I should have phrazed it, this DATA is more useful than you think? I guess I see "more useful than you think" and "less useless than you think" as very similar.

You're saying it adds unnecessary work to acquire knowledge. I say it removes unnecessary work to acquire knowledge.

It is certainly not a universal rule that adding extra steps increases the workload. Not if earlier steps improve the efficiency of the latter steps.

In Japanese we have a lot more words than kanji by orders of magnitude, and so I believe the benefit of the relatively small work on the kanji step, will be greatly multiplied in the latter step of word learning.

Use the few to help learn the many, rather than the many to help learn the few.
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RE: learning.

Postby AJBryant » Wed 12.12.2007 6:07 pm

Data was not useless. He sacrificed himself to save the Enterprise!

(random geek point)


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RE: learning.

Postby HarakoMeshi » Wed 12.12.2007 8:57 pm

^^
Classic :D
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RE: learning.

Postby morph » Wed 12.12.2007 10:41 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
RTK debate will come up any time an RTK supporter posts something recommending others to try Heisig -- perhaps the RTK debate topic should be stickied and linked to every time this comes up.


Good idea. There was a pretty interesting grammar discussion going on - then RtK part XX.
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RE: learning.

Postby morph » Wed 12.12.2007 11:10 pm

Ahem, my above statement notwithstanding...

Wakannai wrote:
Kanji aren't so impossible that you should avoid learning them!


Sigh, why is a statement to not EXCLUSIVELY study kanji taken somehow to mean avoid kanji or not learn them at all? No one is saying this. Please don't argue against points that were not made.


At some point, if you want to achieve some sort of Literacy (another can of worms) you have to study Kanji exclusively. A matter of semantics, perhaps, but a handfull here, one or two there, a handfull more... it all adds up. Or you can get them out of the way in one efficient go. (YMMV ;) )

Stop. What do I mean by exclusively? Simply this: do you remember how to read and write a kanji the first time you see it and never need a refresher for it? Is it instantly internalized? At some point you probably have to focus on Learning the Kanji - this stroke goes here, that goes there; Remembering the Kanji ;) - you will see it again and want to remember it; and if you want to write it - Regurgitating the Kanji. All In addition to any reading(s) and meaning(s) you are at the same time trying to associate with it. However you want to slice the time up, it still will add up.

If you read the introduction to RtK, try it out and don't like it, well it's not for you. That's cool. That's a personal choice.

Trying to explain RtK in a handful of words on a forum is always going to be a bit of a challenge, especially when the audience is, *ahem, somewhat hostile (if not downright rude. Which is cool, your choice, but I think that points to more of a lack of understanding RtK than anything else.)

For example:
Wakannai wrote:
I hope you don't think kanji are as dry and useless as random phone numbers...


sigh, I think you just have a reading comprehension issue. Is English not your native language? No one said that kanji are as dry and useless as random phone numbers. I did say that memorizing kanji from a list is treating kanji as dry random numbers.



Yet you were the one who brought up the comparison. Obviously, Kanji are neither phone numbers nor random numbers, nor do they act similarly. Despite what you think, RtK is not "memorizing kanji from a list" as if they were random numbers.

Seems to me that people who have gone through RtK are saying it works effieciently for them.
Seems to me that people who have not used RtK are saying it is ineffiecient.

Make of that what you will.
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RE: learning.

Postby yukamina » Wed 12.12.2007 11:56 pm

Wakannai wrote:
Kanji aren't so impossible that you should avoid learning them!


Sigh, why is a statement to not EXCLUSIVELY study kanji taken somehow to mean avoid kanji or not learn them at all? No one is saying this. Please don't argue against points that were not made.

I know you didn't mean to not study them at all. Putting them off for much later is still avoiding them.
You admitted it's easier to learn a word when you know the kanji for it, but then said/implied that you should learn words without kanji first. I said I think it's better to know the kanji for the words the first time around. I didn't say anything about studying kanji exclusively here. It may not come across with the way discussions go, but I DO support, use, and appreciate different learning methods.
I hope you don't think kanji are as dry and useless as random phone numbers...


sigh, I think you just have a reading comprehension issue. Is English not your native language? No one said that kanji are as dry and useless as random phone numbers. I did say that memorizing kanji from a list is treating kanji as dry random numbers.

That's rude and unnecessary. "You're still learning numbers from a phone book" comes across as "You're still learning kanji from a list". Was I wrong in assuming you think memorizing the phone book is dry and useless?

I also want to point out that most kanji learning books are just a list of kanji and their info, no sentences or context. Text books generally only cover basic kanji(if there's one that covers more, I'd like to here about it). There's such a huge gap between beginner level and advanced, but so little to fill it.
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RE: learning.

Postby Wakannai » Thu 12.13.2007 4:05 am

Putting them off for much later is still avoiding them.


And I didn't say put them off for much later either. I said study them in context! I even gave an example. It is not one or the other like you keep on trying to make it.

That's rude and unnecessary.


Assuming that you were not a native speaker was giving you the benefit of the doubt. Otherwise the best explanation for your behavior is a very poor attitude. Because you have behaved the same way over the course of many posts.

I mean this in the most considerate way. I have NEVER heard anyone begin a sentence with, "I hope you don't think...." and followed with something pertinent that didn't sound insulting. The very phrase is an insult and displays the speakers lack of respect to the other. It presumes that the person being talked to is an idiot, and that their words are not worth the effort of critically parsing, so instead the speaker makes a very poor effort at reading or listening and then levels an accusation based on those weak conclusions.

Any time you feel the urge to say to someone those words, "I hope you don't think, I hope you don't mean" you should automatically bite you tongue and save yourself some embarrassment. The words "I hope" is a mental cue from your own subconcious that you did NOT make sufficient effort at understanding, but because you have a poor attitude towards the person you are speaking to, you ignore it and then continue with the accusation.

I also want to point out that most kanji learning books are just a list of kanji and their info, no sentences or context.


This is the child's defense. "But other people do it." I really hope you can do better than that. TJPs advice is to find a good textbook and learn words, use these "Kanji Books" as supplements or as review, not as a primary learning tool.

Text books generally only cover basic kanji(if there's one that covers more, I'd like to here about it).


Sigh, there is a nice little wiki we have with Textbooks listed. In Introduction to Modern Japanese is referenced. It teaches over 1000 kanji. Since the book is designed for teaching to read literature there are many kanji in it that are not even on the educational list. It also teaches name kanji which are not even in the Jouyou list.

And, others have mentioned in posts that you have systematically ignored other textbooks like Kanji in Context, Reading Japanese, and so-on. The Clay's shop sells Minna no Nihongo, Nihongo no Kiso, and others. In short, the only reason you don't know it is because you haven't made even a cursory effort at learning. We have a nice wiki page about Textbooks, If you click on Clays shop and click on Textbooks, you will find lists of books he sells and reviewed.

As I said before, if you are a native speaker, then you need to work on your attitude.
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