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learning.

Have a textbook or grammar book that you find particularly helpful? What about a learning tip to share with others?

RE: learning.

Postby HarakoMeshi » Thu 12.13.2007 4:48 am

Sorry wakkanai, but why are you displaying so much attitude and being rude? To use your own terse language, do you assume we are idiots? You sound very condoscending. And when you use "sigh" as often as you do, do you think it makes you sound considerate? Chill out and play nice.
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RE: learning.

Postby HarakoMeshi » Thu 12.13.2007 6:06 am

It seems to me that much of the prejudice against learnig kanji out of context (lets say with RTK), comes not from actual insight into the exact matter, but from drawing parallels to other things like vocab.

The same rules may, or may not apply. How is it that 30 years have passed since RTK was first published, and there are no studies on the efficacy of this method?

Any evidence for or against RTK has been anecdotal from what I've seen.
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RE: learning.

Postby yukamina » Thu 12.13.2007 1:33 pm

Wakannai wrote:

And I didn't say put them off for much later either. I said study them in context! I even gave an example. It is not one or the other like you keep on trying to make it.
I don't have any problem with studying things in context; I study kanji and grammar and vocab in context too!

I also want to point out that most kanji learning books are just a list of kanji and their info, no sentences or context.


This is the child's defense. "But other people do it." I really hope you can do better than that. TJPs advice is to find a good textbook and learn words, use these "Kanji Books" as supplements or as review, not as a primary learning tool.

It's not a defense. I thought we were here to talk about learning methods. I think many people will pick up these kanji books and just try to memorize the information. Which is why I asked about textbooks that cover more kanji, since you guys are always talking about not splitting things up.
Text books generally only cover basic kanji(if there's one that covers more, I'd like to here about it).


And, others have mentioned in posts that you have systematically ignored other textbooks like Kanji in Context, Reading Japanese, and so-on. The Clay's shop sells Minna no Nihongo, Nihongo no Kiso, and others. In short, the only reason you don't know it is because you haven't made even a cursory effort at learning. We have a nice wiki page about Textbooks, If you click on Clays shop and click on Textbooks, you will find lists of books he sells and reviewed.

You're making some big assumptions here :/ I think Kanji in Context sounds good and I have Breaking into Japanese Literature, but I'm not looking to buy anymore textbooks/references. It was my understanding that Minna no Nihongo, Genki, etc taught just the basics(JLPT4~3) Again, this forum is for discussing language learning materials... I was just asking about intermediate/advanced textbooks. My study consists of reading Japanese short stories and books and increasing my vocabulary.
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RE: learning.

Postby nukemarine » Thu 12.13.2007 9:54 pm

I purchased Kanji in Contex, but it's currently above my level. You will be getting many sentences that build on the compounds of the Kanji so it is good from what I can see. In addition, the workbooks come highly recommend (the main book is just like many other Kanji books imho).

Another book that adds context is the Kanji 2001 Odyssey (I think I typed that right). It provides about three sentences for each of the first 1100 Kanji and groups the Kanji in semi-understandable groups.

Let's not forget, this Kanji discussion devolved from the grammar topic. Would I be wrong is stating this:

It is asking for trouble to study parts of a language in isolation. Letters form words, words form sentences, sentences express ideas (ultimate goal?). When you isolate each, you risk not getting the idea across. That means learning grammar rules but not vocabulary, learning vocabulary but not sentences that used one word over another.

Bringing in RTK, I agree with some here that the idea of learning Kanji can be outside the above process for the purposes of learning Japanese. I agree with the others that finishing RTK does not mean I know Kanji and damn sure does not mean I know Japanese. The only thing I can say is it seems to make my learning more efficient now based on how I was learning earlier.

Back to grammar: I do not pour over grammar rules, vocabulary lists, compounds, and tables of conjegated verbs. I'm just going to be reading alot, listening alot and studying via an SRS with sentences. The sentences will be built in a pseudo structured manner using Genki. Most I can do is be honest about my study method and post results.

Current results: illiterate (well, I probably could pass JLPT 4)
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RE: learning.

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Thu 12.13.2007 11:47 pm

You definitely need the workbooks; that's the heart and soul of the textbook -- the reference is book is essentially a dictionary that's organized in a way to be useful for the workbook. If you had to choose between one or the other, the workbook would definitely be what you want to buy.
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RE: learning.

Postby AJBryant » Fri 12.14.2007 11:03 am

HarakoMeshi wrote:
Sorry wakkanai, but why are you displaying so much attitude and being rude? To use your own terse language, do you assume we are idiots? You sound very condoscending. And when you use "sigh" as often as you do, do you think it makes you sound considerate? Chill out and play nice.


Lighten up, there's no attitude or rudeness.

A random observation and opinion:

Lately I've noticed in several different fora (interestingly, all language-learning ones) where people seem to be hypersensitive to conflicting opinions, advice, and suggestions.

I'm really starting to think that the internet should come with a warning lable to the hypersensitive that they might have their feelings hurt.

Tony
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RE: learning.

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Fri 12.14.2007 1:30 pm

Well, you do have to be more careful on online forums because the discussions can get a lot more heated, and you don't have facial expressions or emotions to interpret what's being said.

Also, I understand why this debate engenders so much ill feeling -- people have a lot of time, effort, and emotions wrapped up in study methods.
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RE: learning.

Postby miho-sempai » Fri 12.14.2007 2:30 pm

Sarcasm isn't as easy to interpret online.
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RE: learning.

Postby Kerirae » Sat 12.15.2007 7:26 am

I seriously don't understand how people can learn kanji. It seems difficult, Seriously, how can anyone remeber all those swiggly lines?
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RE: learning.

Postby everdream » Sat 12.15.2007 7:34 am

They become much easier when you stop seeing them as squiggly lines. Perhaps, if you have tried learning them, you have tried much harder ones to memorize. Start small.
We grow too soon old and too late smart. - Steve Wright

'Know thyself?' If I knew myself, I'd run away. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

I went on a diet, swore off drinking and heavy eating, and in fourteen days I had lost exactly two weeks.
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RE: learning.

Postby Kerirae » Sat 12.15.2007 7:38 am

I knew i spelt squiggly wrong!
To me kanji is hard, I dont understand a bit of it.

any tips to help me?
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RE: learning.

Postby everdream » Sat 12.15.2007 7:47 am

Hmm, well, it might be usefull to get a book in helping you. (that said, as a beginner, something like genki, which teaches you kanji along with grammar and words might be useful) And keep readings and reviewing Japanese texts.
Also, I'm going to take an Idea of Yudans here, you can't really say you know the kanji untill you can read them in many compounds. I.e, it's one thing to be able to recite the on, kun readings, but another to know when to use which one.
We grow too soon old and too late smart. - Steve Wright

'Know thyself?' If I knew myself, I'd run away. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

I went on a diet, swore off drinking and heavy eating, and in fourteen days I had lost exactly two weeks.
- Joe E. Lewis
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RE: learning.

Postby NZJutsu » Sat 12.15.2007 8:11 am

Thats true. I have a Kanji Jiten which has a page spread on each kanji from Japanese elementary grade 1- 6.... Its very useful, with kun and on readings, as well as jukugo and context. Start of with a simple kanji like 一 :D
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RE: learning.

Postby Kerirae » Sat 12.15.2007 11:36 pm

Heh,l thanks. I'm just begining, thanks for the tips.
:D
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RE: learning.

Postby sugoiaisukurimu » Sun 12.30.2007 10:56 pm

nukemarine wrote:
guitarplayer7694 wrote:
In your opinion, what order should these be learned.
grammer,vocab,and reading/writing.
If you think any more should be added please tell me. :D


Well, everyone will disagree (and so should you), but learn writing first. Well, learn to write the kanji first. Well, learn to write one kanji via a unique (and hopefully close in meaning) english word which reminds you how to write the kanji properly. I think Remembering the Kanji can do that.

As I've only gotten that far, I can only offer next what I've heard (AJATT which others can tell you what it means):

Listening to native Japanese, and lots of it. Dubbed movies that you liked in English are great to start off.

Reading next, via sentences, via an SRS. With this, you don't have to sweat vocabulary as that happens at the same time.

As for grammar, well, you'll get that with the listening and the reading.

So I guess the order of your four options you gave are: Writing, Reading, Vocabulary then Grammar.


I completely agree. B)
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