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ohai

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ohai

Postby v10japan » Mon 06.14.2010 10:58 pm

Hi everyone!

I've actually been here for a few weeks, but still want to make an intro post :)

My name is Travis. I am a beginning learner in Japanese. I recently made a blog called V10 Japan. I did so to give me (and my readers!) motivation to continue learning :D Motivation to learn Japanese << Please click! I'm kinda desperate for readers ;)

I have several other websites as well, but they aren't related to Japanese so I wont mention em (: anywayyyy thanks for reading!

-Travis
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Re: ohai

Postby chikara » Tue 06.15.2010 12:18 am

TJPへようこそ  :)
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Re: ohai

Postby Dustin » Tue 06.15.2010 1:24 am

Welcome
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Re: ohai

Postby JaySee » Tue 06.15.2010 3:10 am

Welcome!

Website wrote:The awkward examples above are my attempt at making labels for colors :) I opened Google Translator and found all the Kanji for the colors. Then, I typed them in Notepad and increased the font size so I knew how to write then. After I wrote the Kana pronunciation and definition, I pasted them near colors around the house.


Two comments about this method:

1. Google Translator is not a very reliable way of getting your hands on Japanese vocabulary to study, because the translations it gives for English words (let alone sentences) are not always correct. A better way would be to use a dictionary, and an even better way than that would be to use a textbook. A textbook is always very much recommended if you're serious about learning Japanese anyway.

2. Written kanji and printed kanji tend to differ slightly, so copying your hadwritten kanji straight from ms gothic as I see you've done will result in unnatural looking characters (not to mention that with this method you have no way of knowing the correct stroke order, which is important to get at least somewhat right). Look for example at the way you've written 紫, and the way it is written here (especially the bottom part of the kanji). There are some sites around that can help you learn the correct stroke order and correct written form of every kanji, http://kakijun.main.jp is one of them but its a bit cluttered and in Japanese... I'm sure other members will be able to point you to good kanji learning websites in English though.
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Re: ohai

Postby taiyouka » Tue 06.15.2010 5:37 am

Welcome to TJP.
Jaysee, thanks for http://kakijun.main.jp. I needed it - all hirigana and katakana.
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Re: ohai

Postby v10japan » Tue 06.15.2010 11:47 am

First of all, thank you for criticizing me on my introductory post. It would have been much better if you had commented on the actual post at V10 Japan.

JaySee wrote:1. Google Translator is not a very reliable way of getting your hands on Japanese vocabulary to study, because the translations it gives for English words (let alone sentences) are not always correct. A better way would be to use a dictionary, and an even better way than that would be to use a textbook. A textbook is always very much recommended if you're serious about learning Japanese anyway.


Translations for basic words such as "green" or "blue" are typically always correct. I was merely verifying what I already know as I know the pronunciations for all of the colors. Also, the Kanji in the textbooks I own are too small to learn how to write from.

JaySee wrote:2. Written kanji and printed kanji tend to differ slightly, so copying your hadwritten kanji straight from ms gothic as I see you've done will result in unnatural looking characters (not to mention that with this method you have no way of knowing the correct stroke order, which is important to get at least somewhat right). Look for example at the way you've written 紫, and the way it is written here (especially the bottom part of the kanji). There are some sites around that can help you learn the correct stroke order and correct written form of every kanji, http://kakijun.main.jp is one of them but its a bit cluttered and in Japanese... I'm sure other members will be able to point you to good kanji learning websites in English though.


If you would have done your research, you would know I am a beginning learner in Japanese. Stroke order for Kanji and how well it is written does not concern me at the moment. Also, the website that you referred me to is entirely in Japanese so I can't use it. Thanks though?

Please keep corrections on my posts at my blog instead of here. Thank you.
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Re: ohai

Postby JaySee » Tue 06.15.2010 9:35 pm

v10japan wrote:Translations for basic words such as "green" or "blue" are typically always correct. I was merely verifying what I already know as I know the pronunciations for all of the colors. Also, the Kanji in the textbooks I own are too small to learn how to write from.


If you're merely verifying, then why not use a source that gives you the proper written form of each kanji and kill two birds with one stone? Most (good) textbooks will have a separate kanji section though, which will show you an enlarged version of the character and give you information on stroke order and all that.

v10japan wrote:If you would have done your research, you would know I am a beginning learner in Japanese. Stroke order for Kanji and how well it is written does not concern me at the moment. Also, the website that you referred me to is entirely in Japanese so I can't use it. Thanks though?


I think you're getting it wrong; kanji stroke orders and shapes should concern you because you're a beginner. First deliberately learning unnatural shapes and incorrect stroke orders of kanji, and then later having to unlearn/correct those doesn't seem like a terribly effective way of studying kanji to me. Why not just do things the right way on the first go when you've got the chance? Also, the website I gave you on further inspection does actually have an English version (http://kakijun.main.jp/en/). There are quite a few more websites in English similar to this one out there though, so if you don't like this one, you can always use another.

Anyway, I'm not sure if you intended it that way, but your post came off to me as somewhat arrogant. If you're not receptive to well-meant advice from more experienced people, I don't think there really is any point in posting on these forums at all.
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Re: ohai

Postby v10japan » Wed 06.16.2010 1:10 am

I'm very welcoming to advice, when it is appropriate! Critiquing my knowledge on my intro thread is not what I consider a warm welcome.

JaySee wrote:I don't think there really is any point in posting on these forums at all.

Ok I wont. Thanks!
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Re: ohai

Postby phreadom » Wed 06.16.2010 8:18 am

For the record, I've been watching this thread since it started and I think it's an example of a few recurring issues on TJP... (and relates to some issues raised in a troll thread the other day that hasn't been approved in moderation, so most here won't have read it)

In short, a new user comes in and makes their introductory post...

A more advanced Japanese learner/speaker critiques and tries to point out possible problems and ways to improve (in this case clearly along with a warm welcome).

The new user feels very insulted or ridiculed and is so offended that they stop posting on the forum altogether.

Now admittedly in this case a strong critique of every single aspect of a newbies first post can obviously be overwhelming... and personally when I started learning the kanji (and who am I kidding, this is still where I'm at), I was only trying to remember the shapes. I haven't really even begun to work the stroke orders and so forth into my kanji studies.

And while it is true that we try to get people to avoid machine translators at all costs etc... I don't think there was as much harm in this case as it comes across as.

I think this is just a really unfortunate case of someone trying to be helpful without too much candy coating, and a sensitive new user and very new Japanese learner taking it to heart in the totally wrong way. :(

I find it very sad that a user would leave the forum over something like this, even though I can understand the feeling as even I left the forum for around a year when I first joined because of a similar feeling. But I really don't know how else to go about it.

The users here include very skilled and knowledgeable people who are trying to be helpful by pointing out possible errors, weak points in a study method, etc. I think almost every one of them means well, and I think in this case Jaysee's post was meant as a warm welcome with 2 points of possible problems with the particular method mentioned... meant to be helpful for v10Japan to keep in mind going forward.

It's just felt like watching a trainwreck happen in front of me and there was nothing I could do about it. :(

Phreadom and v10Japan in the TJP lounge wrote:(12:20:52 PM) phreadom: v10japan: I'm reading your comment on the forum about Jaysee. :P
(12:30:23 PM) v10japan: phreadom: OMG HE SO CALLED ME OUT THERE!!! it was soo rude of him lol ;)
(12:33:45 PM) phreadom: v10japan: I don't think he was trying to be rude at all. he was just stating some facts.
(12:34:10 PM) phreadom: I think a lot of people (including myself) are very sensitive when they first start and come to the forum and take honest advice as rude criticism when it's not intended that way.
(12:34:31 PM) phreadom: I felt the same way you do and actually left TJP for about a year before coming back and getting involved again.
(12:34:54 PM) phreadom: my buddy Scott never came back and thinks everyone is a bunch of snobby jerks.
(12:35:02 PM) phreadom: I don't really agree with him, but I can see how he felt that way.
(12:36:44 PM) v10japan: I used to be a member of a forum (srl-forums.com anyone?) and I did the same thing. I've been with the forum scene a long time so I know how it works. and yes, it was rude. he had no place to comment on that random post on my INTRO thread. and ppl are sensitive when they first come because first impressions are everything.
(12:41:37 PM) phreadom: well, sure he could have candy coated it... and yes, it was your intro thread about you being a beginner etc... but he started his post with "Welcome!" and then quoted what you said and wrote:

Two comments about this method:

1. Google Translator is not a very reliable way of getting your hands on Japanese vocabulary to study, because the translations it gives for English words (let alone sentences) are not always correct. A better way would be to use a dictionary, and an even better way than that would be to use a textbook. A textbook is always very much recommended if you're serious about learning Japanese anyway.

2. Written kanji and printed kanji tend to differ slightly, so copying your hadwritten kanji straight from ms gothic as I see you've done will result in unnatural looking characters (not to mention that with this method you have no way of knowing the correct stroke order, which is important to get at least somewhat right). Look for example at the way you've written 紫, and the way it is written here (especially the bottom part of the kanji). There are some sites around that can help you learn the correct stroke order and correct written form of every kanji, http://kakijun.main.jp is one of them but its a bit cluttered and in Japanese... I'm sure other members will be able to point you to good kanji learning websites in English though.
(12:42:29 PM) phreadom: point 1 is entirely correct, not written to be rude or insulting, just a helpful statement of fact about the dangers of using a machine translator... something I in fact thought as well the first time I read your post about the notes on your blog.
(12:43:24 PM) v10japan: well did you not read my reply???
(12:43:29 PM) v10japan: translators will work if its one word!
(12:43:31 PM) phreadom: point 2 is also a statement of fact about the importance of learning stroke order and writing style, but really not nearly as important as the first considering that you're still a beginner... so I agree with you on the point that his advice is rather premature on that point.
(12:43:37 PM) v10japan: they work just as well as dictionaries.
(12:44:09 PM) v10japan: he's merely nit-picking. you can find something wrong with anyone's work.
(12:44:59 PM) phreadom: v10japan: that's not necessarily true as well. kanji can have multiple different definitions, and words can have multiple kanji that clarify different meanings etc... it may be true that for simple things like colors the machine translator will work, but in general machine translators should be avoided if possible due to risk of mistranslation etc (as well as developing a reliance on them rather than learning to translate on your own etc).
(12:45:03 PM) phreadom: I'm not trying to be mean. :(
(12:45:17 PM) phreadom: I'm just saying... I don't think he had any ill intention and was just trying to be helpful.
(12:45:35 PM) v10japan: Isn't that what I did and what the point is! I USED IT FOR COLORS. Not sentences! gosh.
(12:45:55 PM) v10japan: well his "helpfulness" didnt help my presence at all.
(12:46:09 PM) phreadom: v10japan: I agree... I don't think it was a big deal. hence the reason I didn't comment at all. I agree with your position as far as that goes.
(12:46:21 PM) v10japan: well thank you :)
(12:46:32 PM) phreadom: I just don't think he was trying to be rude... he was just being a little pedantic. :P
(12:47:18 PM) v10japan: i didnt think he was purposefully being rude. its just obnoxious to instantly be corrected and have your *supposed* ailments posted for everyone to see.


I don't know what else to say really. I think this was just a bad combination of a welcome that was a bit clinical, and a new user who was a little gun shy about criticism.

I just want to stress that I don't think Jaysee meant any ill will with the pointers given and honestly meant a warm welcome. And while I can certainly understand how v10Japan could have been off-put by it, I don't think there was any ill intention to justify such an angry response or to leave the forum outright over it.

Maybe in the future we can try to preface offers of a critique in the INTRODUCTIONS forum with something like "Would you mind if I offered a few helpful pointers about your post?" or something to that effect, because I can remember that same sting of embarrassment when my very first attempt at Japanese was corrected as an error.

I think a perfect example of how v10Japan feels about what happened here to day can be found in that very exchange:

I had written my very first introductory post with a Japanese subject of "こんにちは みんなさん (^_^)/"

phreadom wrote:I suppose I should introduce myself here. :)

I've been lurking around for about a year now and have only poked my head out, so to speak, to announce new JLS releases.

I'd like to start participating a bit more... as my friend in Japan told me "Just dive right in and don't worry if you look silly. It's the best way to learn!"

So I'm taking the advice of he and some others here on this board and trying to do just that. :D

よろしく おねがいします!


And our very own richvh had responded as such:

richvh wrote:If you've been lurking so long, how come you haven't noticed any of the admonitions not to write みんなさん?


Now I don't think it will take many of you much to see how that might feel like a slap in the face to a new user just having the courage to start writing in Japanese a little for the first time.

phreadom wrote:
richvh wrote:
If you've been lurking so long, how come you haven't noticed any of the admonitions not to write みんなさん?


Because I wasn't reading the forums much at all. I was browsing Clay's posts on the front page and surfing around on the site for things like Kanji study, culture etc.

But nice biting response. ;)

(Which is precisely why I asked about this in the General Discussion forum immediately after writing it, because I wondered if it was correct. "You (I) learn something new every day.")


I might have posted once or twice more after that with any Japanese... I think once to say thanks for something as "ありがとうございます" and once to try to see what my name would be in katakana... but mostly it was non-Japanese related stuff and updates about the Japanese Learning Suite... these occasional posts went on for about 3 more months and then I just walked away from TJP. I just didn't feel like I was able to participate on the forum to learn Japanese. I made 2 posts about 7 months later to respond to posts about JLS... and then nothing again for another 3 months... and the only reason I really started feeling like part of the community again at that time was because the site had been in the process of an upgrade and things were broken and I was helping troubleshoot the bugs because it was something I felt confident about. I don't even know how much longer it was after that... regaining my confidence etc... that I finally started posting anything in, or even really about, Japanese on the forum again.

Sorry for the novel... this is just the one thing that breaks my heart to see here on the forums. :sweatdrop: I think by and large the people and the community on this forum are very friendly, helpful, welcoming, etc. I'm very thankful to be a part of it. :love:
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Re: ohai

Postby Hektor6766 » Wed 06.16.2010 2:18 pm

I hope no one minds my 2 cent's worth here:

I would guess that none but the very best japanese linguists have felt the sting of criticism in these forums. And it is not unique to this site; I've had some discouraging responses to posts on lang-8 as well Japanese is a very difficult language (not meaning to start another thread whether if it is the most difficult language here); without even mentioning all the borrowed words, often contracted and clipped, Its characters have multiple readings, there are gender, politeness, in/out group and honorific considerations, its verbs, adjectives and adverbs have many conjugations based on strange criteria to a Western speaker, many of the particles (a strange concept to westerners in itself) have exclamatory origins and thus their functions can be obscure, it is very idiomatic (even in regard to colors i.e., blue/green) and still in a state of flux, etc., etc. It's all very intimidating and the automated translators cannot be expected to be of much help. Persistence, humility and patience are all very necessary from every perspective in this effort.

All that being said, let me offer an idea that may be helpful: try verifying possibilities at http://www.alc.co.jp to get a feel for how the term is actually used.

Not a be-all and end-all solution, but in my small experience, no textbook, lexicon, website or even single approach is a panacea. The subject is just too immense.

And the handwriting? I've found that illegibility = elegance :D
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Re: ohai

Postby v10japan » Wed 06.16.2010 2:37 pm

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I'm not leaving the site altogether, just the forum.

I actually purchased an iPad app today and found out it's partnered with TheJapanesePage.com! It's a Genki I study app. Anyone heard of it? I'm going to be doing a review later.
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Re: ohai

Postby Snowflake » Wed 06.16.2010 3:19 pm

I am using (and enjoying) the Genki 1 app (I also purchased my Genki 1 text and materials through TJP) as well as several other apps that have ties to our friends here at TJP. I don't know if they are IPad compatible, since I have them for my Touch, but if they are, you may want to give them a go:

Beginning Japanese Words and Phrases
(includes great, quicky lessons for studying on the go)
JLPT N5 Vocab (even if you're not planning on taking the exam, this is still good vocab practice)

TJP has a few others, but I haven't tried them yet.

Oh, for what it's worth, I took a look at my Intro thread (from 2 years ago -- yikes!). I was given (constructive) criticism, too, after totally botching the spelling of こんにちは (I spelled it こんいちわ :blush: ). I think the correction may be a way of saying hey, as long as you're here, let's hit the ground running :) . Or, looking at it another way, if people didn't care whether I progressed or not, they wouldn't bother steering me in the right direction. Along those same lines, if the person correcting me had done it privately, no other beginners would have had the benefit of seeing the answer and perhaps learning from it as well.

In any event, I hope you enjoy your time here at TJP, however you choose to spend it (browsing, forums, etc.). It's a wonderful site! Welcome aboard.
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Re: ohai

Postby JaySee » Wed 06.16.2010 11:54 pm

Seriously, this is a bit ridiculous. What does it really matter if he's given advice in his introductory post, on his blog or in any other thread on this forum? In the end it all amounts to the same.

Yes, I might have been a bit succinct, but I was anything but rude in my first post. I admit that I personally have also seen instances of people making somewhat snarky remarks in threads (like phreadom's example) that I think are a bit uncalled for and that I wouldn't make myself, so I'd be very interested to know what parts of my post exactly were insulting/condescending/sarcastic, because I really have no idea.

If he thinks I was being rude, then he either horribly misrinterpreted my intentions, or he's just very touchy and doesn't take well to advice in general. If the latter is the case, this forum might not be the right place for him, since I know of several members who tend to be a lot more 'to the point' than I was here. Do I need to start couching my posts in all kinds of touchy-feely phrases from now on, or ask the honourable newbie if they'd be so kind to grant me permission to provide them with some advice, just in case they might be 'offended' by what I have to say? Isn't giving and receiving advice the reason why people come here in the first place? Again, if your ego is too big to take in other people's ideas and thoughts unless they're phrased using the most careful and considerate of terms, then this is probably not the place for you.

Anyway, look at it from my perspective. He came here to advertise his website, telling us to have a look at it and read it. I actually went through the trouble of doing so, and (mistakenly) thought he might be welcoming of constructive comments, which is why I replied (normally I never reply to introductory posts). Whether or not he takes them in is up to him, I don't care (that's why it's advice, not criticism). I just put them out there in case he or anyone else might be interested. If someone disagrees with my advice, I'd be more than happy to hear their reasons why, but responses like his one are a bit off-putting. Did he just want us to praise him on the wonderful layout and amazing content of his website?

Snowflake wrote:Or, looking at it another way, if people didn't care whether I progressed or not, they wouldn't bother steering me in the right direction.


That's a good way of looking at things :)
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Re: ohai

Postby AJBryant » Wed 06.30.2010 3:04 pm

Gotta tellya....

These days, I see more and more people taking offense -- to be more precise, being "butt-hurt" -- at things that people I consider "reasonable" would not take offense at.

Frankly, I think there are too many speshul snowflakes in the world today who don't know how to take criticism. We see it everywhere. Parent raising their kids to be all special, and schools deciding not to use "red markers" for grading because it's "intimidating" or not giving "Fs" (and instead giving "deferred success" grades), contribute to the problem.

I'm sorry people can't take simple constructive criticism, but if they can't, and they choose to leave, it's no skin off my nose. We aren't babysitters.
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Re: ohai

Postby Snowflake » Wed 06.30.2010 4:14 pm

AJBryant wrote:...Frankly, I think there are too many speshul snowflakes in the world today ...


You mean I'm NOT speshul??? :cry: ( :wink: )
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