Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

View topic - 日本語 vs 中国語 thread

日本語 vs 中国語 thread

NO SPAM ALLOWED! Discuss stuff not related to Japan or Japanese. The rules are the same in this forum as in the other forums.

日本語 vs 中国語 thread

Postby Adriano » Fri 11.12.2010 8:19 am

Hi! This is a topic about chinese language, for all learners, aspirants and interested people in general!

Chinese is a really amazing language.
Specially for those who've been studying Japanese for a long time and sometimes get bored with the language, because after all those inspiring years learning seemingly unlimited kanjis and stuff, you end up with nothing new to learn, but very complex expressions/colloquialisms, weird slang words from Shōnen Jump, and kanjis never even used by japanese, like plants, animals and general words usually written in kana(おもちゃ=玩具、ガラス=硝子・・・) :?

In chinese, since you start the Lesson 1, you just can't stop turning the pages.
As a gamemaniac (and proud of it), I compare the learning of kanjis with that widely played RPG of 2000's.
You start in a little city, only one pokeball in the pocket.
But since you can't control your curiosity about what's coming next, in what each one will evolve into, after the first step, you just can't stop holding it off, because of such a huge combination possibilities of ideograms.
After "clears the Yellow Version" over 10 times (i.e. mastering japanese), then it comes the "Gold Version" (Mandarin), with a lot of new stuff, and even the old things you knew well in the past, becomes new, I mean, you'll have to "relearn" all the readings, from the most basic kanjis.
For instance, after reading for centuries 学校 as "gakkou", then you'll have to get your ears used to "xuéxiào".
That's no katakanized strangerisms to help you anymore, as long as パン becomes 面包, コンピューター电脑, etc..
At least you don't have to learn how to write those complex ideograms from stroke to stroke, just "assemble" the new ones (ex: ) with the tools you already know from Japanese.
Another nice point is that 99,9% of the chinese characters used in mandarin has only one reading.
You don't have to scratch your head to guess if that 上 is a うえ、うわ、じょう、あげる、あがる、のぼる、かみ anymore.
上 is 「Shàng」 and that's all!
Furthermore, you won't ever be caught with an weird ateji again. (you know how a japanese read 女形?)
Spoiler:
おやま=male actors who impersonate women in Japanese kabuki theatre

Naturally, comparisons between the 2 languages are inevitable; every page turned, that's a interesting difference sparkling your attention..for instance, the verb 行く、the chineses uses instead, for 見る, 歩く, 帰る and so on...
Below, I made a little list of curious 简体字 (simplified characters), some resembling japanese, some too simplified that after you learn it, you'll get too lazy to write in japanese form again (can you figure out 时间会议?)

 = 
 = 
 = 
 = 
 = 
 = 
 = 
亿 = 
 = (weird,don't?) :sweatdrop:
 = 

飞机 = 飛行機
电话 = 電話
艺术 = 芸術
运动 = 運動
国际 = 国際→ (国际机场: 国際空港
农业 = 農業
广场 = 広場
练习 = 練習
故乡 = 故郷
奋斗 = 奮闘
兴业 = 興業
发音 = 発音 (what's the "simplified" here? ¬¬)
开发 = 開発
认识 = 認識
公园 = 公園
远足 = 遠足(got it from the previous word?)
广义 = 広義
竞技 = 競技
实际 = 実際
议论 = 議論
专门 = 専門
评论 = 評論
履历书 = 履歴書
领事馆 = 領事館
User avatar
Adriano
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu 12.13.2007 8:04 am
Location: Osaka
Skype chat: adrianojapan2008
Native language: Portuguese

Re: 日本語 vs 中国語 thread

Postby furrykef » Fri 11.12.2010 6:42 pm

Adriano wrote:发音 = 発音 (what's the "simplified" here? ¬¬)

Five strokes for the first kanji instead of nine? :P
Founder of Learning Languages Through Video Games.
Also see my lang-8 journal, where you can help me practice Japanese (and Spanish, and Italian!)
User avatar
furrykef
 
Posts: 1572
Joined: Thu 01.10.2008 9:20 pm
Native language: Eggo (ワッフル語の方言)
Gender: Male

Re: 日本語 vs 中国語 thread

Postby Hyperworm » Fri 11.12.2010 8:17 pm

つまり、ポケモンが好きだ、というわけですね

(冗談 :P

Chinese interests me on a linguistic level. Simplified kanji certainly seems appealing when you bring up 議 vs. 议 xD
It's interesting that some kanji which seem to have no redundant parts in Japanese are reduced to bare minimum in Chinese. For instance, if 習→习, then 羽→? (Maybe it stays the same? XD)

I'm not particularly attracted to the sound of Chinese, though, and I don't think there's anywhere near as much material that I actually want to read in Chinese as there is in Japanese, so I'll be sticking with Japanese only for the foreseeable future. ^^ (I think I'd be more likely to learn Korean.)
fun translation snippets | need something translated?
BTC@1KMZXgoWiDshQis5Z7feCx8jaiP4QAB2ks
User avatar
Hyperworm
 
Posts: 493
Joined: Tue 11.20.2007 2:26 pm
Native language: English
Gender: Male

Re: 日本語 vs 中国語 thread

Postby AJBryant » Fri 11.12.2010 9:01 pm

God, but I hate the PRC's simplified hanzi. Some of them just look so... ugly.

I really prefer the original hanzi, but most of the things being printed now come from the PRC rather than Taiwan. :evil:
User avatar
AJBryant
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5313
Joined: Sun 10.09.2005 11:29 am
Location: Indiana
Native language: English
Gender: Male

Re: 日本語 vs 中国語 thread

Postby furrykef » Sat 11.13.2010 6:31 am

Hyperworm wrote:Simplified kanji certainly seems appealing when you bring up 議 vs. 议 xD

And not so appealing when you find that, in the current international climate, you really ought to learn both forms. So it creates more work for you, not less. :P

議 isn't a kanji I had to put particularly much effort into learning anyway (but then, I used Heisig...)
Founder of Learning Languages Through Video Games.
Also see my lang-8 journal, where you can help me practice Japanese (and Spanish, and Italian!)
User avatar
furrykef
 
Posts: 1572
Joined: Thu 01.10.2008 9:20 pm
Native language: Eggo (ワッフル語の方言)
Gender: Male

Re: 日本語 vs 中国語 thread

Postby Hyperworm » Sat 11.13.2010 9:14 am

Actually, I was more thinking about the effort required to write it... XD

There are abbreviations even in Japanese, though (see: ryakuji; replacing right half of 議 with ギ), and writing by hand isn't something I do often enough for it to be an issue anyway.

>_>
fun translation snippets | need something translated?
BTC@1KMZXgoWiDshQis5Z7feCx8jaiP4QAB2ks
User avatar
Hyperworm
 
Posts: 493
Joined: Tue 11.20.2007 2:26 pm
Native language: English
Gender: Male

Re: 日本語 vs 中国語 thread

Postby Adriano » Sat 11.13.2010 12:42 pm

furrykef wrote:
Adriano wrote:发音 = 発音 (what's the "simplified" here? ¬¬)

Five strokes for the first kanji instead of nine? :P

I´m not talking about the number of strokes, but the fact that an entirely different kanji has been made up...wouldn´t you mistake for
The same happens with the 、that becomes into Image, with a new (strange) order of strokes..If becomes ,why did they put 2 more strokes? :?
Fortunately, this is an exception,if you learn that is ,then it becomes easier to figure out 军人, for instance (軍人).

Hey AJBryant, traditional kanjis are great, but think about the time loss in these days.. who wouldn´t like to write 汉字 instead of 漢字?Or save hours while writing 2 pages about the Liaoning Province? (遼寧辽宁:sweatdrop:
The curious thing is that japaneses uses some "mid"-simplified kanjis.. and sometimes even more simplified kanjis than chinese.. it happens with . All what chineses could do with was .. :think:
Again, japaneses uses instead the used in chinese.
I made a little chart here, with some "semi-simplified" kanjis used in japanese:

豐→豊→丰
樣→様→样
發→発→发
歲→歳→岁



UPDATE:

访问 = 訪問
   =  (新潟県→新泻县 / 沖縄県→冲绳县)
铅笔 = 鉛筆
动词 = 動詞
目录 = 目録
选举 = 選挙
观点 = 観点
Last edited by Adriano on Tue 11.16.2010 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Adriano
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu 12.13.2007 8:04 am
Location: Osaka
Skype chat: adrianojapan2008
Native language: Portuguese

Re: 日本語 vs 中国語 thread

Postby furrykef » Sun 11.14.2010 12:59 pm

Adriano wrote:I´m not talking about the number of strokes, but the fact that an entirely different kanji has been made up...

I don't think the relation is significantly less obvious than it is with many of the other simplifications.

wouldn´t you mistake for

Nope. I would never confuse them. I dunno about Chinese, but I'm sure you're aware that 友 is an extremely common kanji in Japanese (particularly in the word 友達); if this is true in Chinese as well, I'm sure the shape of 友 would get hammered into your brain pretty quickly, and the differences in 发's shape would leap out at you.

I think it's easier to confuse e.g. 描 and 猫... and I wonder whose bright idea it was to come up with 土 vs. 士, and 未 vs. 末...

The same happens with the 、that becomes into Image, with a new (strange) order of strokes..If becomes ,why did they put 2 more strokes? :?


That one is baffling.

Hey AJBryant, traditional kanjis are great, but think about the time loss in these days..

In these days? The time loss is mostly in the old days, not these days. These days we have computers. ;)

And of course for us foreigners, Simplified Chinese can cause significant time loss because many of us learn both Simplified and Traditional. I imagine some native Chinese grapple with this problem as well, though of course it's more of a problem for people who know Simplified and are learning Traditional than the other way around.

Simplified characters can also obscure the etymology of the word and make it harder for foreigners to learn the kanji. More strokes makes a kanji more complicated, but it also provides more information for you to attach a mnemonic to. Often I see a Simplified Chinese kanji and think, "This doesn't resemble any Japanese kanji I know. How would I go about remembering it?"

This is probably made up for by the situations where multiple traditional kanji are written with only one simplified kanji, reducing the number you have to learn, but I don't know how significant an impact that has.
Founder of Learning Languages Through Video Games.
Also see my lang-8 journal, where you can help me practice Japanese (and Spanish, and Italian!)
User avatar
furrykef
 
Posts: 1572
Joined: Thu 01.10.2008 9:20 pm
Native language: Eggo (ワッフル語の方言)
Gender: Male

Re: 日本語 vs 中国語 thread

Postby Kukaelio'ono » Mon 11.15.2010 1:27 am

我现在也学中文 :D

I'm actually taking Mandarin in school and it's very interesting to know that some sounds in Chinese sound like words in Japanese! In fact, a lot of famous words in Japanese come from Chinese origin.

Chinese: 可爱 ke3 ai4 (kuh eye)
Japanese: 可愛い kawaii

Chinese: 图书馆 tu2 shu1 guan3
Japanese: 図書館 toshokan

Chinese: 料理 liao4 li3
Japanese: 料理 ryouri
*These are actually two different verbs but I'm just showing how similar the sounds are.

Further on, some words that are the same sounded completely different from the two languages. However, I realized that Mandarin is a fairly new dialect in China and the Japanese adopted mostly the Wu (Shanghainese), and the Han (Cantonese) sounds---far before Mandarin was even spoken. So:

Chinese: Mandarin= 学校 xue2 xiao4 Cantonese= 學校 hok6 haau6
Japanese: 学校 gakkou (Sounds more like Cantonese than Mandarin)

Chinese: Mandarin= 电话 dian4 hua1 Cantonese= 電話 din6 waa6*2
Japanese: 電話 denwa (Again, sounds like Cantonese than Mandarin)

And, there are words that don't sound anything alike but they are from Chinese origin. Such words are: Sushi (shou4 si1), Nihon (ri4 ben3), Chitetsu (di4 tie2), and of course the numbers.

Your totally right on the different verbs in both languages. Since I learned Japanese before Chinese, it's obvious to at least think that 走 is run (when in Chinese it's walk) and 写 is to reflect (when in Chinese it's write) when I took my Chinese class last year.
So I actually like both the languages and continue to learn both at the same time. They kinda mutually help me (I know stroke order from Japanese so my Chinese is neater and I know the On-Yomi from Chinese)
Kukaelio'ono
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed 08.11.2010 12:48 am
Native language: English

Re: 日本語 vs 中国語 thread

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 11.15.2010 9:11 pm

Of course, don't forget that 发 is also the simplified form of 髪 -- some of the simplifications have resulted in dissimilar characters combing into one.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

Re: 日本語 vs 中国語 thread

Postby ss » Tue 11.16.2010 6:46 am

As we all know, Japanese's kanji writing is a mixture of simplified and traditional forms. For example,

頭が痛いから今日学校を休もう。
因为头痛,今天不上学了。 (all simplified)
因為頭痛,今天不上學了。 (all traditional)

豚が公園の中を走ってる。
猪在公园里跑。(all simplified)
豬在公園裡跑。(all traditional)

芸術
艺术 (simplified)
藝術 (traditional)

道元禅師と公案禅
道元禅师与公案禅 (simplified)
道元禪師與公案禪 (traditional)

If you show 「発」 and 「豚」 to the children here, I think 99.9% of them can't recognize these words, because they have never learned in schools.

Last time I asked Coco san this word 东, she said it was not a Japanese word, but she knew it meant "East", 「東半球」 vs 「东半球」。

回家 = go home
In Japanese you say 家へ戻る, hardly see the word 回 use for "return home"
But, you'll find 北回帰線 as "Tropic of Cancer"

In additional to simplified and traditional Chinese hanzi, 古文 (ancient writing) is another interesting writing styles which will mostly appear in classical novels. For example, the word 「仝」 "same" 「同」 (tong) 「同じ」 (onaji), quite common in modern script. The 古文 for 藝 is actually a 「禾」+ 「丸」, you can find this word in some modern novels. The 古文 for 登 is 「癶」 + 「弁」, occasionally you'll still find this word in modern script.

浮草 = 浮萍 fúpíng (duckweed)
撮影 = 摄影 shèyǐng (photographing)
速報 = 快报 kuàibào (bulletin)

There are indeed many confusing words, to add what Furrykef said, there are also
卯,卵
日,曰
无,旡
兮,分
力,刀
牛,午
于,干
见,贝
己,已
戊,戎
往,住
刺,剌
爪,瓜
历,厉
吏,史
衷,哀
鸟,乌
国,匡
荼,茶
亦,赤
栗,粟
考,孝
胃,胄
币,巾
良,艮
亘,旦
丹,舟
捐,损
杲,呆


That's also the reason why if you want to make tattoos, you have to be very careful, without one little tiny dot or stroke, it will become another character. Have you heard of the joke "He is a 大使" becomes "He is a 大便"?
User avatar
ss
 
Posts: 1656
Joined: Fri 11.18.2005 10:07 am
Native language: English speaking family

Re: 日本語 vs 中国語 thread

Postby Adriano » Tue 11.16.2010 7:00 pm

furrykef wrote:Simplified characters can also obscure the etymology of the word and make it harder for foreigners to learn the kanji. More strokes makes a kanji more complicated, but it also provides more information for you to attach a mnemonic to. Often I see a Simplified Chinese kanji and think, "This doesn't resemble any Japanese kanji I know. How would I go about remembering it?"

Personally, I believe that if you are diligent enough,you will learn as well, study its etimology (or not), and then,the simplified mode.
So, from now you know what 豊 means, but won´t never lose time writing it fully.
It´s like those kanjis you recognize when you see it, but since its compounded by so many strokes, you don´t know how to write it properly, wishing you could write it with only 3 or 4 strokes..(:D
Kukaelio'ono wrote:it's very interesting to know that some sounds in Chinese sound like words in Japanese! In fact, a lot of famous words in Japanese come from Chinese origin.

You´re right, it´s nice to see how some chinese words are phonetically similar to 日本語:

天气 - tenki → tiānqì
政府 - seifu → zhèng​fǔ​
地图 - chizu → dìtú
台风 - taifuu → tái​fēng
通知 - tsuuchi → tōng​zhī​
修理 - shuuri → xiūlǐ
电话 - denwa → diànhuà

Of course, most of words are phonetically very different:

 空 - sora → kōnɡ
文化 - bunka → wénhuà
努力 - doryoku → nǔlì
旅行 - ryokou → lǚ​xíng
学校 - gakkou → xuéxiào
活动 - katsudou → huó​dòng
留学生 - ryuugakusei → liú​xué​shēng


Yudan Taiteki wrote:Of course, don't forget that 发 is also the simplified form of 髪 -- some of the simplifications have resulted in dissimilar characters combing into one.

Wow, that explains a lot! I always got confused with the word 头发(tóufɑ), the chinese way to say .
If 头=頭、and 发=発, why is that 髪? :think:
Now you gave me the answer, 头发=頭髪(though it´s not a word usually spoken in japanese,I think).

SS wrote:
于,干
己,已
刺,剌
荼,茶
胃,胄

are they really...different kanjis? :shock:
As Furry and SS pointed out, sometimes it´s really confusing get so many similar kanjis...but worse than that, is get the same kanji, different 1 or 2 strokes between the languages:

隐 = 隠
别 = 別
巢 = 巣
换 = 換
両 = 两
携带 = 携帯
经济 = 経済
銭   = 钱
(not the simplified 金 radical,but the one less stroke in the right half)


Confusing? What about this? :think:
齋 齊 斎 斉 斋
緣 縁 缘

(all the same kanji)


UPDATE:
   = 
   = 
战士 = 戦士
鱼网 = 魚網
 (ぎょもう=fishnet)
扑灭 = 撲滅
机关 = 機関
范围 = 範囲
 (管辖范围管轄範囲
组织 = 組織
User avatar
Adriano
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu 12.13.2007 8:04 am
Location: Osaka
Skype chat: adrianojapan2008
Native language: Portuguese

Re: 日本語 vs 中国語 thread

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Tue 11.16.2010 8:19 pm

Adriano wrote:
Yudan Taiteki wrote:Of course, don't forget that 发 is also the simplified form of 髪 -- some of the simplifications have resulted in dissimilar characters combing into one.

Wow, that explains a lot! I always got confused with the word 头发(tóufɑ), the chinese way to say .
If 头=頭、and 发=発, why is that 髪? :think:
Now you gave me the answer, 头发=頭髪(though it´s not a word usually spoken in japanese,I think).


I don't think so either. 頭髪(とうはつ) is in the Koujien but 髪の毛(かみのけ) is the most common spoken word for "[head] hair".

SS wrote:己,已


This one is even in Japanese; 已然形 is a grammatical word.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

Re: 日本語 vs 中国語 thread

Postby Adriano » Wed 11.17.2010 3:39 pm

Kukaelio'ono wrote:Your totally right on the different verbs in both languages. Since I learned Japanese before Chinese, it's obvious to at least think that 走 is run (when in Chinese it's walk) and 写 is to reflect (when in Chinese it's write) when I took my Chinese class last year.

That's the trick for japanese learners who dares to challenge Mandarin. :twisted:
I don't know if it's because of the culture differences or how the kanjis were introduced in Japan, but we can find expressive difference between the use of a certain kanji in mandarin-japanese.

As you pointed out, indeed means 書く
Then, you learn that the kanji 书(書) means in chinese.
Furthermore, the 本, a measure word for long, thin objects (including pencils) is shifted by 枝(branch) in chinese, that makes much more sense.. 我有2枝笔 - I have two pens. (笔=simplified 筆)
Again, 枚, once a measure word for thin and flat items in japanese, is shifted by 张(張), and now is a measure word for small objects.

There are countless "mysteries" to solve yet.. have you ever asked yourself why "stamp" is 切手(cut+hand), "postcard" is 葉書(leaf+write)..?
In chinese it makes more sense(邮票明信片)、but why do japaneses write りんご as 林檎 if actually the chinese word is 苹果

The same happens with:
窓→窗
箸→筷子
靴下→袜子
誕生日→生日
麒麟→长颈鹿
(giraffe,the "long neck deer") :sweatdrop:

Though I think 麒麟 and きりん are just 2 different words with the same sound. A lonely giraffe among all those sake bottles and chinese unicorns if you search for images typing the kanji.
User avatar
Adriano
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu 12.13.2007 8:04 am
Location: Osaka
Skype chat: adrianojapan2008
Native language: Portuguese

Re: 日本語 vs 中国語 thread

Postby Adriano » Mon 11.29.2010 9:22 am

below, some old particles..in kanji!

 = 
私はブラジル人です。  = 我是巴西人。

 = 
彼女は私のおばあさん。  = 她是我的奶奶。

 = 
あなたはアメリカ人ですか?  = 你是美国人吗?

 = 
明日、私は東京と大阪へ行きます。 = 明天,我去东京和大阪。

 = そして
私は息子がいます。そして娘もいます。  = 我有儿子。还有女儿。

 = とっても
今日、私たちはとっても忙しい。  = 今天,我们很忙。  (们=たち)

 = だけ
彼女は果物だけを食べます。  = 她只吃水果。

 = これ、この、こちら
こちらは私の友達、マリさん。  = 这是我的朋友,玛丽。

 = それ、その、あれ、あの
それはお父さんのプレゼントですか? = 那是爸的礼物吗?

多少 = いくら、どれぐらい
この車はいくらですか?  = 这车多少钱?

 = ください
私の家に来てください!  = 请来家!

 = より
彼女は私より忙しい。 = 她比我忙。

JP:
私は中国へ歴史を勉強しに行きます。
CH:
我去中国学习历史。


UPDATE:

 = 
 = 
 = 
 = 
 = 
种类 = 種類
变态 = 変態
积极 = 積極
杰作 = 傑作
拟人 = 擬人
确认 = 確認
庆祝 = 慶祝


and some "recognizable" kanjis:

经验   経験
检查   検査
丰桥市  豊橋市
国际结婚 国際結婚
User avatar
Adriano
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu 12.13.2007 8:04 am
Location: Osaka
Skype chat: adrianojapan2008
Native language: Portuguese

Next

Return to General off topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests