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If TJP were a family...

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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby Gundaetiapo » Wed 10.10.2007 8:45 pm

"Our primary teacher is Mr. Smith, who is the kind of teacher _____ people hate, but learn a lot from."

"that" sounds a lot better stylistically there than "who".


Perhaps that is because the word "who" already appears a short ways earlier in the sentence. I think the ear doesn't like hearing the same word too often or too close. Compare with

"Our primary teacher is the kind of teacher _____ people hate, but learn a lot from."
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 10.10.2007 8:50 pm

See, to me, "that" sounds perfectly natural and idiomatic there -- "who" is OK too, though.
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby tanuki » Wed 10.10.2007 9:09 pm

I would've used "whom". :D
Last edited by tanuki on Wed 10.10.2007 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby chikara » Wed 10.10.2007 9:11 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
....
Sometimes I just can't see using "who" instead of "that", i.e.:

"Our primary teacher is Mr. Smith, who is the kind of teacher _____ people hate, but learn a lot from."

"that" sounds a lot better stylistically there than "who".

To your ear maybe but certainly not to mine.
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 10.10.2007 9:45 pm

tanuki wrote:
I would've used "whom". :D


My spoken English does not contain such a word. :)
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby Infidel » Wed 10.10.2007 11:18 pm

"Our primary teacher is Mr. Smith, who is the kind of teacher _____ people hate, but learn a lot from."


Whenever I start stressing over that, who, or whom. I just drop the whole thing.

Our primary teacher, Mr. Smith, is the kind of teacher people hate but learn a lot from.

To me, who and whom are interrogative words, so it seems strange in any construction that is not a question.
Last edited by Infidel on Wed 10.10.2007 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby AJBryant » Thu 10.11.2007 1:55 am

"She is a person whom they hate."

"She is a person from whom they learn."

"Whom" is the object. "Who" is the subject.

It's really bloody simple. Rewrite the sentence. If you use "he/she" then it's a "who." If it ends up as a "him/her" then it's "whom."

"They hate she" -- uh uh, we don't say that. We say "they hate HER" -- thus "she is a person whom they hate." Likewise, we don't say "We learn a lot from she." We say "from HER" thus it's "whom."

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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby Infidel » Thu 10.11.2007 3:34 am

(sigh)

Why are mnemonics so hard to remember!
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby TheIrishSin » Thu 10.11.2007 8:00 am

Mike Cash wrote:
TheIrishSin wrote:
Well if I were a reg.
Which I am not.
But if I were.


The class just completed a lesson on the subjunctive mood. Please try to keep up.

We'll cover the topic of sentence fragments later.


I'm sorry, I came to this thread to discuss what part of the TJP family I would be.

Not grammar.

Also, I'm a teenager in highschool.
I'm one of the few who spell out the whole word.
and at least try at the grammar,
Feel lucky your not getting slang and abbreviations.

:D
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Thu 10.11.2007 8:04 am

If you use "that" you don't have to remember who or whom for that context. :D

Who and whom died a long, long time ago. You can find "misuses" of them in Shakespeare and the King James Bible (instances of both "who" substituted for "whom", and vice versa). From all appearances, a clear distinction between "who" and "whom" has never existed in Modern English. The grammarians came up with the difference in the 18th century, and people have happily ignored it ever since.

Having said that, you do need to make sure you use it correctly in formal or academic writing, and Tony's method of figuring it out is good.
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby two_heads_talking » Thu 10.11.2007 10:32 am

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
If you use "that" you don't have to remember who or whom for that context. :D

Who and whom died a long, long time ago. You can find "misuses" of them in Shakespeare and the King James Bible (instances of both "who" substituted for "whom", and vice versa). From all appearances, a clear distinction between "who" and "whom" has never existed in Modern English. The grammarians came up with the difference in the 18th century, and people have happily ignored it ever since..


They haven't died. Just because you choose not to use them doesn't indicate their extinction. If you care to do more research you will realize that "who" and "whom" are not missused in the KJB at all. There are cases where who and whom are utilized in a more "proper" usage similar to keigo in Japanese. Knowing when and where to use, thee, thou, who, whom, etc., is a grand step towards properly grammatizing from the original. Bastardized English(basically what most educated americans speak) aside, and evolution of languages put back in the closet, one cannot say that the proper usage of "who" and "whom" is dead. However, one can choose to not utilize it thus killing it for them. There is a difference in doing the latter as opposed to the prior.
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby burstandbloom » Thu 10.11.2007 12:44 pm

Ok then... I'll be the hot step sister everyone feels awkward for liking.
Jussst kidding. I'm a guy, anyway.
How about the creepy 25 year old adopted son? I'll be that, even though I'm not 25 either.
You guys are really passing up some really awesome family member ideas.

You grammar guys/gals should read an article called "Authority and American Usage", by David Foster Wallace. It's good. Anyway, it'd be nice to really have grammar and the English language down correctly. But seeing as it doesn't really affect me because I communicate well within my discourse, and fairly ok outside of it, I probably will never try to. And I do notice that a lot of people (none of you here, of course) who are big nuts about speaking correctly and writing as well, really suck at communicating with people as a whole. I would say that's more important.

And this...
Gundaetiapo wrote:
Tony, when they stopped teaching phonetics and went to whole language, the whole grammar thing went right out the window.


What do you mean by "whole language"?

I was in class with my daugther the other day and the teacher says, "Don't worry about punctuation, spelling or grammar." I nearly fell out of my chair.


What was the context?


I thought this was actually a really good question, that it seems everyone has passed up.
Sometimes when English teachers want their students to do free writing/creative writing, they will tell them not to worry about spelling, punctuation, or grammar. Which I completely agree with.
When you have students trying to worry and concentrate on stuff like that and what they think the teacher wants you to write, you end up getting terrible "engfish". Basically a bunch of BS the kids write up because they want to sound impressive (or how they think they should sound) and don't speak in their "real voice".
("engfish" from, Chapter 1: The Poison Fish, from Telling Writing, by Ken Macrorie. Again, another good read.)
Last edited by burstandbloom on Thu 10.11.2007 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby AJBryant » Thu 10.11.2007 1:27 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
You can find "misuses" of them in Shakespeare and the King James Bible (instances of both "who" substituted for "whom", and vice versa).


I hate it when people do this.

Has it never occurred to you that Shakespeare was not writing prose, but DIALOGUE? His grammar was FINE in the poetry.

Just as today, if I were writing a script, I could get a lot of information about characters across to viewers merely by doing this:

A: I din't do nothin, yo! Don' be jackin' me, homes.
B: I swear, I didn't do it! Please go away.
C: It wasnae I what done it, laddie. Now hie ye on hoom.
D: Bogus, dude -- no way it was me! Quit harshing my mellow.
E. As God is my witness, I was not involved. Now kindly leave me in peace.
F: Chit, meng, joo can't pin dat on me. Screw joo!
G: I say, old man, that's a bit of misdirection, what. My man will see you out.

And so forth.

Shakespeare knew this, and his audiences did, as well.

The "proper" use of language is -- and always has been -- a factor of how much education one has, how much one pays attention to what is and is not correct, and what one is trying to communicate.

Tony
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby JaySee » Thu 10.11.2007 2:11 pm

I don't really see the problem... language evolves naturally, though some people unfortunately see this as detirioration. It's a problem that has been existing for millennia, even during the Roman era intellectuals were crying over the way the common people 'abused' the language and books on how to speak and write properly were written.

Germanic languages have a strong tendency towards putting the stress on the initial syllable of a word, which through time caused the final syllable(s) (usually the case marker) to not be articulated as well, and eventually in most cases not to be pronounced at all anymore.This happened not only to English, but to all Germanic languages, and was accelerated by language contact (except Icelandic which could remain more or less unchanged due to its isolated geographical position). Languages tend to 'regularise' because speakers are lazy, so it's only a matter of time before odd irregularities like the subjunctive and 'whom' disappear completely. Seriously, if the reason for the death of the English language was the loss of a case system then it would've been dead by Chaucer.
Last edited by JaySee on Thu 10.11.2007 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: If TJP were a family...

Postby two_heads_talking » Thu 10.11.2007 2:54 pm

AJBryant wrote:


I hate it when people do this.

Has it never occurred to you that Shakespeare was not writing prose, but DIALOGUE? His grammar was FINE in the poetry.

Just as today, if I were writing a script, I could get a lot of information about characters across to viewers merely by doing this:

A: I din't do nothin, yo! Don' be jackin' me, homes.
B: I swear, I didn't do it! Please go away.
C: It wasnae I what done it, laddie. Now hie ye on hoom.
D: Bogus, dude -- no way it was me! Quit harshing my mellow.
E. As God is my witness, I was not involved. Now kindly leave me in peace.
F: Chit, meng, joo can't pin dat on me. Screw joo!
G: I say, old man, that's a bit of misdirection, what. My man will see you out.

And so forth.

Shakespeare knew this, and his audiences did, as well.

The "proper" use of language is -- and always has been -- a factor of how much education one has, how much one pays attention to what is and is not correct, and what one is trying to communicate.

Tony


HERE! HERE! CARRY ON CHAP!!
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