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In case you are interested

Japanese, general discussion on the language

RE: In case you are interested

Postby saraLynne » Fri 01.25.2008 12:18 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
Children do not rely on explicit feedback to learn language; in fact, they tend to steadfastly ignore explicit feedback and refuse to incorporate any corrections into their speech.


Sidetrack here: Do you have kids? What age of children are you referring to here? I've never seen a child unresponsive to L1 correction. My experience with children ranges from many backgrounds. My mother provided foster care and respite care for years when I was growing up, plus my own children and my nephews, who (with their parents) live in the two-family home with us.

Even now that my children are six and seven years old, they still accept corrections to previously held misconceptions now that they are learning to read and write more and more complex words. My nephew, 5, is a little (a LOT) more bullheaded than my children, but still accepts that he must learn to communicate, and my other nephew, just over 2 years old, still says many words incorrectly, but will happily spend time with you trying to say them right.

Feedback is -the- way a child learns L1 correctly. The more they get, the better grasp on language they have. Those who do not receive correct, immediate, and constant feedback perform more poorly in language (not necessarily related to school subjects, but more related to everyday speaking and writing).
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RE: In case you are interested

Postby Algoze » Fri 01.25.2008 12:28 pm

Kisshu wrote:
Welll.. i know most people don't give a rip about me and my lovely life, but to those who even remember me at alll...

I just got my results back.... and I PASSED MY INTERMEDIATE JAPANESE PLACEMENT TEST! So now I can actually take a real Japanese class at college O_______O


Yes I don't really care about your lovely life XD
But either way congratulation on passing :)

Good job! Taking a class is always better than studying on your own, or at least for the initial stages. Hope it goes well.


Yeah classes help but it depend of course on how the teachers are.
Last edited by Algoze on Sun 01.27.2008 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: In case you are interested

Postby Shirasagi » Fri 01.25.2008 1:05 pm

In my day, the Japanese language students and Japanese ryuugakusei would basically take over Espresso 22 in the Dinkydome. Many Japanese students taking ESL classes upstairs would come down for lunch, a break, or just to study. I'd do my 50 minute recitation class in the morning in Folwell Hall or Jones Hall, then hang out in Espresso 22 between classes the rest of the day, assured of speaking Japanese with natives and/or fellow Japanese language students.

Some of my fondest college memories are of hanging out in some dorm rooms in Middlebrook Hall with the ryuugakusei as they talked, drank, and socialized amongst themselves. Real living Japanese. I understood maybe one word in fifty, but it was an invaluable experience.

I don't know what they're doing these days, Kisshu, but network in your classes and try to tap into the Japanese speaking campus community, both native and non-.
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RE: In case you are interested

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Fri 01.25.2008 2:22 pm

saraLynne wrote:
Yudan Taiteki wrote:
Children do not rely on explicit feedback to learn language; in fact, they tend to steadfastly ignore explicit feedback and refuse to incorporate any corrections into their speech.


Feedback is -the- way a child learns L1 correctly.


I think you may be mixing L1 acquisition with development of language abilities after the initial acquisition phase. I was talking about *acquisition* of language, that is, the period in which the child is still learning the basic grammar (which compares to what most second language learners are doing). Once the child has reached the point where they've basically mastered the language but then just have to learn additional vocabulary and the "prestige dialect" forms that are different from common speech, then explicit feedback can have an effect.

Those who do not receive correct, immediate, and constant feedback perform more poorly in language (not necessarily related to school subjects, but more related to everyday speaking and writing).


This is quite a broad statement that has no support -- if you see someone who is good at language, how would you know how much or how little feedback they received as a child?
Last edited by Yudan Taiteki on Fri 01.25.2008 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: In case you are interested

Postby arbalest71 » Fri 01.25.2008 3:33 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
Well, I guess I see the overall feeling towards classes here. :D


Well, if you read me closely enough I think you'll find that I am arguing that a good class is both indispensable and hard to find. I've spent dozens, if not hundreds of hours IMing with a certain girl from Osaka, and, if anything it has hurt my usage (while increasing my vocabulary), as she refuses to correct me- every once in a while she will point out that I am starting to sound too girly because I am picking up language from her, but that's it. I'd love to find a class that focussed on feedback.

Yudan Taiteki wrote:Most learners need classes because they are unable to organize the material and come up with a study plan, and they need external motivation to do the work.


Sure- I just don't want to have to suffer through that process. If engineering students were treated that way you'd have to get last rites every time you crossed a bridge- and they are now treated enough like that that there ought to be a Priest at every crossing. If it were up to me I'd make every kid who wanted to go to a good University spend a year or two working in a hard grimy environment, just to get the hormonal issues worked out (good thing it's not up to me ;) ). You should be an adult by the time you enter University.

Yudan Taiteki wrote:The heavy focus on oral work in OSU's program is due in large part to the difficulty of learning to speak a language on your own. (However, many students do not appreciate this and just complain that we don't teach enough kanji.)


Well, you might be surprised to hear that I am supportive of a heavy focus on oral work during class time. Kanji study does not require a teacher. It should, as far as I am concerned, be assigned and assumed.

its author underestimates the amount of feedback children get.


Yudan Taiteki wrote:Children do not rely on explicit feedback to learn language; in fact, they tend to steadfastly ignore explicit feedback and refuse to incorporate any corrections into their speech. Adults don't have the luxury of learning the same way as children do, though.


I don't think the literature agrees with you on this one. It's true that children often ostensibly ignore feedback before a certain age, but it's also true that children defy other forms of socialisation while incorporating the necessary lessons. At some point they do stop putting jam on the cat- they knew better years before. Of course, the question is: "Why did the kids put jam on the cat? Strawberry jam all over the cat? They did it 'cause we said...".

At any rate, it is a fact (one that can be observed) that children receive a great deal of feedback when it comes to usage. I don't know how you would go about showing that this is not important to their development.
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RE: In case you are interested

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Fri 01.25.2008 3:43 pm

Another view of language acquisition suggests that children learn to produce correct (grammatical) sentences because they are positively reinforced when they say something right and negatively reinforced when they say something wrong. This view assumes that children are being constantly corrected for using "bad grammar" and rewarded when they use "good grammar." [Roger] Brown and his colleagues report [in A First Language] from their studies that reinforcement seldom occurs, and when it does, it is usually incorrect pronunciation or incorrect reporting of facts that is corrected...They conclude that it is 'truth value' rather than syntactic well-formedness that chiefly governs explicit verbal reinforcement by parents....Even if syntactic correction occured more often, it would not explain how or what children learn from such adult responses or how children discover and construct the correct rules. In fact, attempts to 'correct' a child's language seem to be doomed to failure.

(from An Introduction to Language by Victoria Fromkin and Robert Rodman)

There's a lot that's unknown about child language acquisition. A lot of what the research so far has done is simply eliminate certain possibilities -- e.g. children do not learn language by imitation, by explicit teaching, or by being corrected. Most of this research involves simple observation of children, tracking both what they say as they age, and what is being said to them. But there are some puzzling results that are hard to explain -- for instance, from observation of numerous cultures we know that it is not necessary to speak directly to a child for them to learn language, but they do have to hear speech, and having a child watch a lot of TV does not work.

But I don't know how much further we should take this. It's drifting from the topic of this thread (even the already drifted topic of the usefulness of classes), and it's just going to devolve into yet another "linguistic research vs. common sense" type of debate.
Last edited by Yudan Taiteki on Fri 01.25.2008 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: In case you are interested

Postby two_heads_talking » Fri 01.25.2008 3:53 pm

yeah and then I will have to come in and say something. And we know you don't want that.. No one wants that..

(edit)

Let me be clear, I am not disparaging anyone's statements. Nor am I attacking any one specific viewpoint. Rather I am making fun of myself and my usual jump in feet first style of conversation. If you have decided to take offense to this even after I have explained it, go soak your head. :D
Last edited by two_heads_talking on Fri 01.25.2008 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: In case you are interested

Postby arbalest71 » Fri 01.25.2008 4:17 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:

But I don't know how much further we should take this. It's drifting from the topic of this thread (even the already drifted topic of the usefulness of classes), and it's just going to devolve into yet another "linguistic research vs. common sense" type of debate.


Well then, I'll leave it to you to figure out why that quote fails to address my point. But this is not a matter of my common sense vs your expert knowledge. I am not arguing from a position of "common sense".

And, two_heads... any time you want to get into a head soaking competition with me I'm game... after all, common sense says that it will always take you twice as long.
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RE: In case you are interested

Postby Wakannai » Fri 01.25.2008 4:19 pm

I think most of us know you by now TH :)

There are certain subjects that will inevitably draw a response, or a specific type of response from each of the regulars.
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RE: In case you are interested

Postby sei » Fri 01.25.2008 4:29 pm

(from An Introduction to Language by Victoria Fromkin and Robert Rodman)


Hey! I had to read that book. >.<

Sorry... just had to say it. Makes me all happy that I know most of this stuff.


And gratz to Kisshu. :)
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RE: In case you are interested

Postby two_heads_talking » Fri 01.25.2008 4:33 pm

Wakannai wrote:
I think most of us know you by now TH :)

There are certain subjects that will inevitably draw a response, or a specific type of response from each of the regulars.


You'd be surprised. However, I do reserve the right to throw my opinion around with the best of them.
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RE: In case you are interested

Postby Kisshu » Fri 01.25.2008 11:13 pm

Haha! Woooooww... I am so surprised at how many replies I got to this (although quite a few of them drifted into the "off topic" category)

To be honest, I love studying Japanese. It's kinda sad, but what people ask what I do in my freetime, I'm honest and I say that I study O_< Honestly, I think my Genki book has been anywhere I've been... to the doctors, dentist, state fair, you name it.

I think I learned relatively well on my own. I mean, I just finished lesson 17 about 2 weeks ago, and passed the placement test. However, I think I need some work especailly in speaking situations. I think speach is the most difficult part of Japanese for me.

Soo.... I have joined the Japanese student society and also a Japanese conversation group at the U. I'm gonna try my best, guys! Thanks for backing me up!
Last edited by Kisshu on Fri 01.25.2008 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: In case you are interested

Postby XzoeiscuteXx » Wed 01.30.2008 6:13 pm

おめでどう!


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RE: In case you are interested

Postby Musiflare » Wed 01.30.2008 9:11 pm

おめでとうございます!

I'm taking my Japanese placement exam for college this summer, but I'm also about 6 chapters behind you in Genki. >__>
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RE: In case you are interested

Postby Stefan » Fri 02.01.2008 8:54 pm

omedetou omedetou! yoku dekimashita! ;)
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