Does Japanese exist?

Japanese, general discussion on the language
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PsychoSP
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RE: Does Japanese exist?

Post by PsychoSP » Tue 04.10.2007 1:02 pm

Shirasagi wrote:
Good to know The Japan Hierarchy is still valid.
That was amusing. And more or less accurate.

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Mike Cash
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RE: Does Japanese exist?

Post by Mike Cash » Tue 04.10.2007 1:19 pm

Shirasagi wrote:
Mike Cash wrote:
Shirasagi wrote: Good to know The Japan Hierarchy is still valid.
That's cute. I take it you're one of the dancing bears?
I've bounced around the hierarchy. Eikaiwa, Japanese company, just started an ALT job. I'm still a slave to the 人文知識・国際業務 visa, so stepping up to something high status, like truck driving, will have to wait.

On the whole, Eikaiwa was much more rewarding than doing the salaryman thing, though.
Over the years I've heard many foreigners mention some sort of hierarchy, and uniformly they have been those who are insecure regarding their perception of their own place in it. The sort who still are fresh enough off the boat that they perceive the duration and nature of one's stay in Japan to be some sort of contest.

For example, the type who upon being presented with a simple factual statement that the nature of the typical eikaiwa teaching position is not to actually teach anything but rather to provide entertainment immediately takes it as some sort of personal smackdown attack on his position in the hierarchy.

Save that gaijin metaphorical weenie-size comparing crap for your buddies who still think it means anything. I got over being impressed with myself for merely being in Japan quite some time ago. Just because you're still in that got-something-to-prove mode don't assume that everybody else is too. I couldn't care less why you're in Japan, what you do in Japan, or how long you've been here.

Interesting that you decided to have this reaction, rather than refute my contention that eikaiwa teachers are dancing bears. I could have gone farther and said that if I had my way they'd be charged with being accessories to fraud in most cases.
Last edited by Mike Cash on Tue 04.10.2007 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Never underestimate my capacity for pettiness.

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two_heads_talking
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RE: Does Japanese exist?

Post by two_heads_talking » Tue 04.10.2007 4:13 pm

well I suppose that's one way to clear the air.. but then again a good fart every now and again is also a good way to clear the room..

i am not sure at this point if either of you has a valid point or if it's just much ado about nothing and both of you having your dander up over a pretty rediculous position one way or the other.. I am sure in all cases there is no clear "all eikaiwa teachers are dancing bears" and "all truck drivers are bullheaded" statements to be made, so it might be a good idea to just keep disagreing with each other until it gets so deep we all need chest waders to move around..

altough that heirarchy link is hilarious i am still trying to find out where i fit in at one time.. lol oh wait.. right in between gaijin bartenders and people selling fake loius vuitton bags.. how quaint..

PsychoSP
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RE: Does Japanese exist?

Post by PsychoSP » Tue 04.10.2007 4:38 pm

two_heads_talking wrote:
altough that heirarchy link is hilarious i am still trying to find out where i fit in at one time.. lol oh wait.. right in between gaijin bartenders and people selling fake loius vuitton bags.. how quaint..
But I bet at the time you thought you looked pretty cool in your bike helmet.

Didn't you.

By the way, I just found out I've been employed full-time in Japan. I thought this would be a good time to say I'm ecstatic, proud, and not ashamed of either emotion. I hope I'm not alone in that, especially on a site for learning Japanese.

I'm to be a JET CIR. A quick look at the hierarchy will tell you that criminal circus animals (well, the ALT ones anyway) will soon have another bitter enemy in me. ;)
Last edited by PsychoSP on Tue 04.10.2007 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KNH
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RE: Does Japanese exist?

Post by KNH » Tue 04.10.2007 8:47 pm

Congratulations, PsychoSP.

Delekii
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RE: Does Japanese exist?

Post by Delekii » Tue 04.10.2007 11:47 pm

Congratulations PsychoSP. Whereabouts will you be going?

Personally, when I come to Japan it will be for my sake, not for the sake of anyone else, so I cant possibly see the merit of caring what somebody else thinks about it. I don't have any delusions of grandeur regarding the position of an ALT or 英会話, I just need a means of getting to, and staying in Japan for an extended period of time, which either route provide.

If you are going to set me up in Japan and pay me, send over the bear costume for all I care.

PsychoSP
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RE: Does Japanese exist?

Post by PsychoSP » Wed 04.11.2007 1:04 am

Delekii wrote:
Congratulations PsychoSP. Whereabouts will you be going?
Thanks! I don't know yet where I'll be, but I'll be back to report.
Personally, when I come to Japan it will be for my sake, not for the sake of anyone else
Heh heh. Just for your さけ? ;)
If you are going to set me up in Japan and pay me, send over the bear costume for all I care.
Do post pictures of you wearing it.

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RE: Does Japanese exist?

Post by Delekii » Wed 04.11.2007 1:43 am

PsychoSP wrote:
Personally, when I come to Japan it will be for my sake, not for the sake of anyone else
Heh heh. Just for your さけ? ;)
That too :o

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two_heads_talking
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RE: Does Japanese exist?

Post by two_heads_talking » Wed 04.11.2007 9:28 am

PsychoSP wrote:But I bet at the time you thought you looked pretty cool in your bike helmet.

Didn't you.)
to be quite frank.. we were not required to wear bicycle helmets.. I don't believe that became a standard policy until 1997 or later.. I was in Japan for that from 1987-1989

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Yudan Taiteki
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RE: Does Japanese exist?

Post by Yudan Taiteki » Wed 04.11.2007 11:28 am

JET does not tell you where you're going until you already sign the legally binding contract -- they don't want people running away when they find out they're being put in bumfuck inaka.
-Chris Kern

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Kagemaru
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RE: Does Japanese exist?

Post by Kagemaru » Wed 04.11.2007 11:44 am

Mike Cash wrote:
Interesting that you decided to have this reaction, rather than refute my contention that eikaiwa teachers are dancing bears. I could have gone farther and said that if I had my way they'd be charged with being accessories to fraud in most cases.

Bullseye...

Shirasagi
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RE: Does Japanese exist?

Post by Shirasagi » Wed 04.11.2007 11:47 am

Mike Cash wrote:
Over the years I've heard many foreigners mention some sort of hierarchy, and uniformly they have been those who are insecure regarding their perception of their own place in it. The sort who still are fresh enough off the boat that they perceive the duration and nature of one's stay in Japan to be some sort of contest.

For example, the type who upon being presented with a simple factual statement that the nature of the typical eikaiwa teaching position is not to actually teach anything but rather to provide entertainment immediately takes it as some sort of personal smackdown attack on his position in the hierarchy.

Save that gaijin metaphorical weenie-size comparing crap for your buddies who still think it means anything. I got over being impressed with myself for merely being in Japan quite some time ago. Just because you're still in that got-something-to-prove mode don't assume that everybody else is too. I couldn't care less why you're in Japan, what you do in Japan, or how long you've been here.

Interesting that you decided to have this reaction, rather than refute my contention that eikaiwa teachers are dancing bears. I could have gone farther and said that if I had my way they'd be charged with being accessories to fraud in most cases.
Well, overreact much? I guess I have to apologize. Given your habit of making pithy, snarky remarks, I expected you'd be able to handle the same when sent your way. I guess, despite all protestations, job-related snark is verboten. Okay, I'll make a mental note.

I don't give a damn about the hierarchy. The only thing I care about as far as jobs go is whether one fits for me. You certainly seem to feel you're superior to Eikaiwa teachers, which is why it occurred to me to link to the thing in the first place. It was just a silly bit of internet-fluff, funny because of the kernel of truth. But if you think I refer to it every time I meet someone or everytime I change jobs, well, you're mistaken. I would think that would be pretty obvious from my previous post, where I explicitly said I thought Eikaiwa was preferable to working as a salaryman. You snarked about my perceived job, I snarked back. But hell, nothing serious was meant. I certainly didn't take your comment about Eikaiwa personally. Guess I gotta use more smilies.

Was I really expected to "refute" your "dancing bear" remark? Was it really made in the interest of engendering discussion of Eikaiwa teachers? Well, again, sorry for the misunderstanding. I assumed you have a pretty set opinion about Eikaiwa teachers, you were cracking wise based on it, and that nothing I might say would do a damn thing to change your mind. But if that's not the case, here it goes:

I harbor no illusions about the Eikaiwa industry providing a great public service. In my own experience, within the industry, as with many others, there are good ones (generally pretty small), some so-so ones, and pretty bad ones. I guess, having worked at a few different schools, I'm not inclined to paint them all with the same brush. Not every place is NOVA or GABA.

And the same with teachers. Yeah, I've met a lot of flaky folks who've come over with no training or experience, who sing and dance for a year while they enjoy a vacation from life. I've also met folks with public school teaching experience, CELTA, and other training qualifications. They work hard planning lessons, and trying to give their students the best lessons they can. And this goes for the Japanese Eikaiwa teachers, as well, who don't provide nearly as much "entertainment value" being Japanese, and instead work twice as hard as most foreign teachers for half the pay. "Dancing bear" is not exactly how I would describe those latter people.

Nor would I be so condescending as to suggest that all the Eikaiwa students just want to be entertained. Jeez, it'd be nice if that were true; the job would be much easier. Sure, you have your housewives for whom English is their "shumi", who just come to their once a week class and never get better, no matter what exertions the teacher goes through. That's not a particularly high percentage though. Toyota Motors, for example, requires it's workers to score over 600 on the TOEIC in order to get overseas assignments, which are required for the promotion track. Well, those guys aren't content being entertained, let me tell you. If they don't see results, they're quite happy taking their business elsewhere. You got your kyoiku-mama, who are itching to take their kids out of Eikaiwa and throw them into a juku at the first indication that they aren't learning anything. And then you got the people with experience abroad, paying out of their own pocket so they can keep their English level up. They, too, have to feel like they are getting something out of it; Eikaiwa ain't cheap.

So, are Eikaiwa teachers required to consider the wants and desires of their students and adjust accordingly? Sure. And college professors are likewise expected to worry about keeping money rolling into their school by keeping the number of students in their program high, and keeping those students happy. And as this thread demonstrated, high school teachers in Japan are more concerned about getting their kids to pass entrance exams than actually teaching them things. In everything there's the ideal and there's the bottom line, and the reality is trying to manage a reasonable balance of the two. So you want to say Eikaiwa teachers are dancing bears? I'll call bullshit. That's simply taking the worst representatives of Eikaiwa teachers and students and generalizing that to everybody. I'm not blind to those representatives, as my very first freakin' post in this thread should amply demonstrate. But if you want to believe that Eikaiwa teachers across the board are just dancing bears that should be prosecuted as accessories to fraud, well then, yeah, I think you have much more of a hang-up over people's jobs than I have ever had.

I don't know about you, I'm not interested in burning bridges or pissing people off, Mike. Particularly the people whose posts I generally enjoy and agree with. Take this post however you will; I don't particularly expect it to change your opinion of Eikaiwa, or however you now think of me. For my part, I have no issue with you. You apparently took my off-hand needling waaay more seriously than I intended, and if it helps, I apologize for that remark. I've always thought that it was cool that you drive a truck.

(BTW, this post constitutes a "reaction". Anything less than 10 lines is just me being glib. :D)
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PsychoSP
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RE: Does Japanese exist?

Post by PsychoSP » Wed 04.11.2007 11:58 am

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
JET does not tell you where you're going until you already sign the legally binding contract -- they don't want people running away when they find out they're being put in bumfuck inaka.
Aw, come on. Some people actually like the inaka. I lived in rural 和歌山県 and loved it.
Shirasagi wrote:
and if it helps, I apologize for that remark.
Unfortunately, that's likely to end up a perverse incentive for Mike.
Last edited by PsychoSP on Wed 04.11.2007 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KNH
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RE: Does Japanese exist?

Post by KNH » Wed 04.11.2007 1:01 pm

[off topic post] You know, Mike reminds me a lot like Greg House from House. You cannot help but hate the guy, but you also cannot deny that he knows his stuff. [/off topic post]

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Yudan Taiteki
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RE: Does Japanese exist?

Post by Yudan Taiteki » Wed 04.11.2007 2:02 pm

PsychoSP wrote:
Yudan Taiteki wrote:
JET does not tell you where you're going until you already sign the legally binding contract -- they don't want people running away when they find out they're being put in bumfuck inaka.
Aw, come on. Some people actually like the inaka. I lived in rural 和歌山県 and loved it.
Some people do, but I think the program is right to be worried about the possibility of JETs quitting if they find out they're in the country.
-Chris Kern

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