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is my nihon go good? :3

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RE: is my nihon go good? :3

Postby hyperconjugated » Fri 07.06.2007 11:09 am

Infidel wrote:
Again, nothing is being taken. Your analogy doesn't work. It is like someone Leaving the door open with a "Welcome" sign, so I go in, sit in the chairs, walk around, use the bathroom, and then leave, everything is where I found it. Obviously, If someone leaves the door open and puts a sign up saying "Open" then they can't legitimately complain when people come in.

I think it's called trespassing and the
welcome-doormat or whatever is not
legitimate excuse.
Last edited by hyperconjugated on Fri 07.06.2007 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: is my nihon go good? :3

Postby Infidel » Fri 07.06.2007 12:58 pm

Where did I say doormat? I said Sign, and I meant Sign. A doormat you have to go onto another's property to even see. A sign can be seen off the property. The sign says, "Open, Welcome." And I didn't say "Just a sign." either, I said, Sign and Open door--not unlocked--Open. But I'll accept Trespassing before I'll accept stealing. However, a certain amount of trespassing is acceptable. For instance, walking along someone's yard to stay off the road. If these homeowners chose to prosecute for trespassing, they would lose.
Last edited by Infidel on Fri 07.06.2007 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: is my nihon go good? :3

Postby Infidel » Fri 07.06.2007 1:01 pm

two_heads_talking wrote:

if i pay for my wireless services.. if you hijack them, borrow them, or otherwise use them without paying, you are taking something i own.. don't pretend it belongs to you .. I suppose in this day and age, i should just accept that their are lazy people who would rather not pay for stuff and hijack it so they get the same.. you probably pirate cable too.. it wouldn't surprise me at all..


Do you chase down the kids that grab the candy you leave outside your door on halloween? Thieving bastards!

So what if you paid for the candy, you are also the one that made it publically available. People tried call dumpster diving stealing and lost there too. If you leave it out in a way that symbolically states, "Take some" or "I don't want it." IT'S NOT STEALING.

The end.
Last edited by Infidel on Fri 07.06.2007 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: is my nihon go good? :3

Postby witega » Fri 07.06.2007 1:57 pm

Infidel wrote:
Where did I say doormat? I said Sign, and I meant Sign. A doormat you have to go onto another's property to even see. A sign can be seen off the property. The sign says, "Open, Welcome." And I didn't say "Just a sign." either, I said, Sign and Open door--not unlocked--Open. But I'll accept Trespassing before I'll accept stealing. However, a certain amount of trespassing is acceptable. For instance, walking along someone's yard to stay off the road. If these homeowners chose to prosecute for trespassing, they would lose.


But there is no sign. If there were a sign (i.e., "Free public internet access") then there would be no discussion. Without a sign, it is the equivalent of someone stupid enough to leave their door open; but however stupid leaving the door open is, that doesn't legally (or ethically) justify a perfect stranger walking in and making themselves at home.

And bandwidth is not unlimited--you're right that stealing enough bandwidth to check e-mail is neglible; equivalent to the trespasser stealing a penny he finds under the couch or stealing a handful of water from the faucet, but it is technically stealing. The attempt to analogize to air is very faulty. Not only is it generally accepted that air is not 'owned', unlike bandwidth, it is practically impossible to *avoid* breathing air which has passed over someone else's property, but you have to take active steps, including the acquisition of technological devices, to steal someone else's bandwidth.
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RE: is my nihon go good? :3

Postby Tspoonami » Fri 07.06.2007 1:59 pm

What about less computer-savvy people who don't even know that they should protect their wireless? The people who have internet because other people told them what to get, and then expected them to know how to set it up...

I'm not arguing against or for anyone; I'm just throwing out some ideas. I wouldn't care if people mooched off of my Internet, but I have it password protected (my router won't let me not have it protected).

Infidel wrote:
Do you chase down the kids that grab the candy you leave outside your door on halloween? Thieving bastards!

I do that... I also beat them up and take their candy. Is there something wrong with that?
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RE: is my nihon go good? :3

Postby two_heads_talking » Fri 07.06.2007 2:06 pm

Infidel wrote:
two_heads_talking wrote:

if i pay for my wireless services.. if you hijack them, borrow them, or otherwise use them without paying, you are taking something i own.. don't pretend it belongs to you .. I suppose in this day and age, i should just accept that their are lazy people who would rather not pay for stuff and hijack it so they get the same.. you probably pirate cable too.. it wouldn't surprise me at all..


Do you chase down the kids that grab the candy you leave outside your door on halloween? Thieving bastards!

So what if you paid for the candy, you are also the one that made it publically available. People tried call dumpster diving stealing and lost there too. If you leave it out in a way that symbolically states, "Take some" or "I don't want it." IT'S NOT STEALING.

The end.


lol, your analogies have less and less merit to them.. on halloween i am usually at a chruch halloween function. I leave no candy on my step.. as for dumpster divers, last I checked i threw it away. therefore I don't care.. that is completely derailed from i pay for a service, encrypt it and the guy next door is trying to piggyback without paying.. see the difference? if not, this conversation must be way over your head.. it's ok though, one of these days you will understand.. then we can discuss it more fully.
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RE: is my nihon go good? :3

Postby Dehitay » Fri 07.06.2007 2:13 pm

Infidel wrote:
So what if you paid for the candy, you are also the one that made it publically available. People tried call dumpster diving stealing and lost there too. If you leave it out in a way that symbolically states, "Take some" or "I don't want it." IT'S NOT STEALING.


Out of curiosity, do you know about the heavy association between dumpster diving and identity theft? If some one throws their bank statement out in the trash, does that mean that anybody has to right to take it since they apparently don't want it anymore? Even if the person who takes it doesn't use it for identity theft, is that still ok? What if he just leaves it on a table in a public place instead with a sign that says "Take! Somebody else's bank information"? Since it's apparently his property after he took it from your trash can, I guess he has the right to do that as well. He hasn't committed any crimes according to your logic, but I would have had him heavily prosecuted if he ever did that to me.

And to say that hijacking somebody else's internet connection doesn't hurt them is also mistaken. Do you not realize that ISP's put download and upload limits on accounts? I can only upload at 70 Kb/s because of SuddenLink thinking that uploading isn't important. I'm also limited to the rate of packets that I can send. Such a thing is probly done to deter torrenting, but it completely screws up internet gaming. Now I can only use 1 of my computers to play 1 internet game like WoW, Guild Wars, or the like at a time and it's still laggy. If I was to open an unprotected wireless connection and have somebody use either my uploading or packet transferring, my connection would be crippled severely.
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RE: is my nihon go good? :3

Postby Pork Chop » Fri 07.06.2007 2:20 pm

two_heads_talking wrote:

starbucks and other "cyber cafes" offer their wireless connections as part of their business.. I am not speaking of that.. Hotels even offer wireless to their clients.. but if you live across the street from said establishments and are using their services.. that is the exact type of thing I was referring to. I am not sure why you were confused.

and yes, wardriving is typically done on a legal scale.. but again, I wasn't referring to that type of thing.. I thought it was pretty obvious where I was going with that topic.. ;)


I just wanted to be painfully obvious that I wasn't promoting illegal activity. :D
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RE: is my nihon go good? :3

Postby sei » Fri 07.06.2007 5:06 pm

I don't think I ever saw a thread go so off topic as this one. :p
Last edited by sei on Fri 07.06.2007 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: is my nihon go good? :3

Postby SenescenceReign » Fri 07.06.2007 8:33 pm

Weeeellll... we proved the original topic was pointless, so it's been hijacked! I'm pleased with the change.
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RE: is my nihon go good? :3

Postby Pork Chop » Fri 07.06.2007 10:36 pm

As am I. But then, the purpose of most posts I make is to hijack the thread.
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RE: is my nihon go good? :3

Postby Infidel » Sat 07.07.2007 1:18 am

Tspoonami wrote:
What about less computer-savvy people who don't even know that they should protect their wireless? The people who have internet because other people told them what to get, and then expected them to know how to set it up...


If it becomes a problem then they will take notice and correct it. If it doesn't become a problem, then they will never notice it, and therefore, never correct it. Either way, they showed no signs of caring, so they must not.
And bandwidth is not unlimited--you're right that stealing enough bandwidth to check e-mail is neglible; equivalent to the trespasser stealing a penny he finds under the couch or stealing a handful of water from the faucet, but it is technically stealing.


It is difficult to explain morality and ethics to people that so obviously reject them, but I'll try. Morality and Ethics is a study of the results of one's actions, and the avoidance, or mitigation, of negative consequences to others due to one's actions, as well as, the study of when an action that would normally be considered wrong is the correct one.

Saying, "Stealing is wrong because it's stealing." is a circular argument, i.e., a logical fallacy. The moral question is why is stealing wrong, and the answer is, "Because it causes harm or loss to others." If there is no harm or loss, there is no moral problem.

When I was a kid I used to grab food from my siblings' plates when they weren't looking. One day, I left the table and came back. When we finished eating I noticed that my brothers and sister were snickering. My step mom then informed me that one of them had macked my food while I was gone, apparently expecting me to be offended or something. But if they hadn't told me I would have never noticed, so I didn't mind at all. Which seemed to throw them off balance. No one ever seems to really believe that I treat others the way I'd have them treat me.

two_heads_talking wrote:

lol, your analogies have less and less merit to them.. on halloween i am usually at a chruch halloween function. I leave no candy on my step..


So do you chase down and accuse people that take it from a neighbor's house? After all, you don't have an unencrypted wireless by your own admission too.


as for dumpster divers, last I checked i threw it away. therefore I don't care.. that is completely derailed from i pay for a service,


You pay for the trash service, you paid for the item that you eventually threw away. So it is on topic. If you didn't uncrypt your wireless, "You didn't care."

encrypt it and the guy next door is trying to piggyback without paying.. see the difference? if not, this conversation must be way over your head.. it's ok though, one of these days you will understand.. then we can discuss it more fully


We were discussing unencrypted network, not breaking into encryted networks. See the difference? If not this conversation must be way over your head.
Last edited by Infidel on Sat 07.07.2007 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: is my nihon go good? :3

Postby Infidel » Sat 07.07.2007 1:24 am

Out of curiosity, do you know about the heavy association between dumpster diving and identity theft?


Yes.


If some one throws their bank statement out in the trash, does that mean that anybody has to right to take it since they apparently don't want it anymore?


If you give someone personal information, whether wittingly or not, there are still ethical consideration about the use of that information. Posession isn't the problem so long as it was acquired in a legal matter. It's malicious usage that is the problem. A lot of people don't seem to get this.

If I was to open an unprotected wireless connection and have somebody use either my uploading or packet transferring, my connection would be crippled severely.


I was dicussing web browsing and checking email. Something that is benign that requires technical analysis to even notice.
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RE: is my nihon go good? :3

Postby Dehitay » Sat 07.07.2007 9:40 am

Infidel wrote:
If you give someone personal information, whether wittingly or not, there are still ethical consideration about the use of that information. Posession isn't the problem so long as it was acquired in a legal matter. It's malicious usage that is the problem. A lot of people don't seem to get this.


In the US, there is nothing legal about that manner of acquisition. Dumpster diving is a crime in all 50 states I believe.

Also, I like how you think anyone who experiences inconvenience of some one tapping into their wireless internet will do something about it. You must live around intelligent people. If you had to deal with the abundance of fools that I have to, that concept wouldn't have come to mind. Computer illiteracy is wide spread even amongst technological countries. I wonder if those Indians who can theoretically solve all your computer problems be reading off a screen would cover this topic. Or maybe they should have to pay extra for the Geek Squad from Best Buy to come by and fix it.

You remind me of a torrent pirate who absolutely refuses to admit that he's committing a crime. Even if something doesn't directly inconvenience somebody, that doesn't mean it's not wrong.
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RE: is my nihon go good? :3

Postby sei » Sat 07.07.2007 10:04 am

Out of curiosity, what is "dumpster diving"?

If it is what I think it is, then we don't have a law against it in Portugal. Our... hmm... trashes(?) are public, so anyone could (and goes) pick things from it. I don't think there was ever problems with it.
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