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We can help your study of Japanese

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We can help your study of Japanese

Postby tondemo » Wed 09.12.2007 1:34 pm

I'm a Japanese. And I'm president of English speaking club which is held in my college. That is called ESS (English Speaking Sociaty). Now, I'm looking for some groups or clubs which is held for studing Japanese in the college, high school, class, or something. Because, I believe we must help each other. I can ready for various activities. For example, exchange of e-mail, conversation with messenger, etc.

If you are interested in this suggetion, send me a mail.

tondemo-english@hotmail.co.jp

Please don't forget writing your country and group name.

Thank you
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RE: We can help your study of Japanese

Postby pooja » Wed 09.12.2007 2:14 pm

sure :) thats a relief. I have come across so many threads but they all seem to be very advanced..as for beginners like me, i think you should start with simple words and sentences and conversation and may be chat..
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RE: We can help your study of Japanese

Postby richvh » Wed 09.12.2007 3:06 pm

ESSという英会話部がこのサイトのチャット部屋を使ったら、どうですか。

ポストの訂正:

I'm a Japanese->I'm Japanese ("I'm a Japanese" isn't technically wrong, but sounds weird.)
. And I'm president of English speaking club which is held in my college.->, and I'm (optional: the) president of the English speaking club which meets at my college. (It's best to avoid starting a sentence in with "and" in many contexts. Here, it works better to connect it to the preceding sentence. Alternatively, drop the "and" entirely and let this sentence stand on its own.)
That is called ESS->It is called ESS*
Now, I'm looking for some groups or clubs which is held for studing Japanese in the college, high school, class, or something->I'm presently looking for groups or clubs which are studying Japanese at colleges, high schools, classes, or something*
Because, I believe we must help each other-> , because I believe we can help each other* (again, joining to the preceding sentence, or removing the "because" and letting the sentence stand on its own is better. "Can help" is less pushy than "must help")
I can ready->I am ready*
Please don't forget writing->Please don't forget to write*
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RE: We can help your study of Japanese

Postby resolve » Fri 09.21.2007 2:27 pm

"I'm a Japanese" _is_ technically wrong. Japanese is an adjective with no equivalent noun counterpart in common use, which is why it sounds weird. The reason "I'm an American" is okay is because the adjective form has come to be used as a noun as well.

Just an aside :-)
Last edited by resolve on Fri 09.21.2007 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: We can help your study of Japanese

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Fri 09.21.2007 3:18 pm

"I'm a Japanese" is *not* wrong. Any dictionary should have the noun form:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Jap·a·nese /ˌdʒæpəˈniz, -ˈnis/
–adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of Japan, its people, or their language.
–noun
2. a native or inhabitant of Japan.

It may be unidiomatic in some people's speech, but it's not wrong, technically or non-technically.
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RE: We can help your study of Japanese

Postby resolve » Fri 09.21.2007 5:25 pm

It _is_ wrong, because most people don't treat "Japanese" as a noun. You'll note I said "in common use" in my previous post. The dictionary points out its usage as a noun because somewhere, at some time, it was used that way. But for the average speaker, "Japanese" is _not_ a noun, and using it as such sounds strange, because it is ungrammatical.
Last edited by resolve on Fri 09.21.2007 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: We can help your study of Japanese

Postby saraLynne » Fri 09.21.2007 5:49 pm

I thought we were talking about whether or not it is "technically" wrong? Must there be a debate on what being "technical" means as it relates to language?

It is by the book. Within the prescribed rules of the language as dictated usually by a dictionary or some other solid grammatical reference. If a dictionary says that Japanese can function as a noun, then TECHNICALLY, it functions as a noun.

Common use falls outside of technicalities. Now, this may be nitpicky, but I shall fall back on my children's favorite phrase: You started it.
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RE: We can help your study of Japanese

Postby resolve » Fri 09.21.2007 6:25 pm

A dictionary documents all usages of a word, not only the common ones. The average person doesn't treat 'Japanese' as a noun and wouldn't use it in place of a noun in any situations. If a person doesn't consider 'Japanese' as a noun, then 'I am a Japanese' is _technically incorrect_. Just because a dictionary indicates that it is (rarely) used as a noun doesn't make it correct in the eyes of the common person.
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RE: We can help your study of Japanese

Postby Feba » Fri 09.21.2007 7:43 pm

If we're not going by what the books say, English is just a jumble of sounds.


Hell, English is a jumble of sounds as it is.
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RE: We can help your study of Japanese

Postby tanuki » Fri 09.21.2007 9:31 pm

Resolve, what do you mean by "technically"?
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RE: We can help your study of Japanese

Postby Tspoonami » Fri 09.21.2007 11:43 pm

resolve wrote:
Just because a dictionary indicates that it is (rarely) used as a noun doesn't make it correct in the eyes of the common person.

That's actually all that a common person would need to know; if they saw it in a dictionary, they would assume it's correct.

I'm guessing by 'technically,' you mean 'with regard to technique,' and common speech is the technique, so if it is incorrect in common speech, it is technically incorrect.
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RE: We can help your study of Japanese

Postby resolve » Sat 09.22.2007 3:23 am

tanuki: I was taking issue with richvh's statement. I don't know any native speaker who would say "I'm a Japanese" sounds natural. The reason for this is because Japanese is not a noun in the eyes of a common speaker. Thus using it with "a" is bad grammar, and thus "technically" incorrect. Unless richvh has another definition of technical he wants to tell us about.

Anyway, I didn't mean to cause a fight. The mistake is a common one for Japanese speakers who speak English. I just wanted to point out that it is actually grammatically wrong in the context of the average speaker, which is in turn why it sounds wrong.
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RE: We can help your study of Japanese

Postby Infidel » Sat 09.22.2007 3:57 am

The reason for this is because Japanese is not a noun in the eyes of a common speaker.


I wouldn't go that far. Someone saying, "I'm Japanese." is perfectly natural and Japanese is obviously a noun here so we can't say Japanese is not a noun in the eyes of a common speaker. I think the problem is that in the sentence "I'm a Japanese" it sounds unfinished because "Japanese" does have dual uses and the "a" implies the following word might be an adjective.

It would be an interesting subject to research. Find a number of words that could serve as both adjectives and nouns then set them in similar sentences that makes the function ambiguous. Such research might well discover that any word following a or an that could be an adjective, will be read as an adjective before realizing the sentence ended abruptly.
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RE: We can help your study of Japanese

Postby resolve » Sat 09.22.2007 4:06 am

No, the Japanese in "I'm Japanese" is an adjective, just like "I'm happy". As I said previously, "I'm an American" is okay because the word has come to be used as a noun as well. There are many examples of where this doesn't hold - "I'm British" vs "I'm a British", for one.

It is most certainly not "obviously a noun"
Last edited by resolve on Sat 09.22.2007 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: We can help your study of Japanese

Postby Valatunda » Sat 09.22.2007 4:51 am

resolve wrote:
It is most certainly not "obviously a noun"


Really?

So you don’t speak Japanese? You don’t learn Japanese? You don’t study Japanese? These are all noun usages of the word Japanese, which refers to the language itself.

With the inhabitant use, what if you were to say the Japanese do this or the Japanese do that? These are still noun usages.

Regarding “I’m Japanese”, could you be saying “I am a native or inhabitant of Japan” or “I am of or characteristic of Japan, its people, or their language”? Could be both, but one is a definition of a noun and the other an adjective.

There are many examples of where this doesn't hold - "I'm British" vs "I'm a British", for one.


But that is because that is used mainly as an adjective. The noun use of which is the plural functioning the British, referring to the natives or inhabitants of Britain. So though you would not say "I'm a British", you could say "I'm a Briton".
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