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~の考えには

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~の考えには

Postby katafei » Sat 02.16.2008 2:29 pm

田中さんの考えには賛成しかねる点が多い。

No context, just a sentence explaining the use of ~かねる.
Am I on the right tracks with this translation:

"There are many points on which I (we, they) cannot approve of Tanaka’s idea."
?
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RE: verb+かねる

Postby coco » Sat 02.16.2008 9:41 pm

Yes, I think you are right. :)

verb + かねる=hard to verb/ hesitate to verb → cannot verb
This is a kind of euphemistic expressions, so you can't combine かねる and every verb.

考えかねる
言いかねる
決めかねる
できかねる
are some common expressions of this かねる usage.

( or you are asking about how to use には?)
Last edited by coco on Sat 02.16.2008 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: ~の考えには

Postby Oracle » Sun 02.17.2008 1:24 am

I've always considered 〜かねる to be the ultimate in diplomatic language: Only in Japanese could you express 'can't' to someone without using a single negative-form word in the sentence.
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RE: ~の考えには

Postby katafei » Sun 02.17.2008 8:32 am

coco wrote:
...
考えかねる
言いかねる
決めかねる
できかねる
are some common expressions of this かねる usage.
( or you are asking about how to use には?)


:)
Yes, I was...I should have been more clear. But I do appreciate these examples of かねる usage as well, since obviously it's new to me. I think I do understand the nuance, though.

とにかく...About this sentence:
田中さんの考えには賛成しかねる点が多い。

I break it up as follows:
は = concerning
に = towards
田中さんの考え = Tanaka's idea
賛成しかねる点が多い。= there are many points about which there is no approvement.

And so I end up with my translation:
"There are many points on which I (we, they) cannot approve of Tanaka’s idea."

(as opposed to something like:
"Tanaka's opinion is, he has many points on which he cannot approve"
on a subject that is not mentioned in the sentence....)
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RE: ~の考えには

Postby two_heads_talking » Mon 02.18.2008 10:11 am

Oracle wrote:
I've always considered 〜かねる to be the ultimate in diplomatic language: Only in Japanese could you express 'can't' to someone without using a single negative-form word in the sentence.


but since the 〜かねる doesn't really mean can't (it's more of a hesitation or difficulty to do (as coco-san explains above)) you are stating a difficulty in or hesitation to do something.

In English "I can't do that" vs "I have difficulty doing that" are completely different in meaning. Of course the first means one is unable to do while the second means is able to do but with difficulty.

So, while not being argumentative, I really don't see the "can't" part of your explanation Oracle.)
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RE: ~の考えには

Postby keatonatron » Mon 02.18.2008 10:23 am

So why is the title of the thread "~の考えには" and not "〜かねる"? :|
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RE: ~の考えには

Postby Hyperworm » Mon 02.18.2008 11:41 am

katafei wrote:
coco wrote:
( or you are asking about how to use には?)
Yes, I was...
keatonatron: ^^^ that's why.

The sentence the OP picked as an example of の考えには is a sentence that happens to have been used somewhere to explain how to use かねる. The OP wasn't actually asking about how to use かねる. (Though because it's obvious the OP was looking up how to use かねる, help for that has also made its way into this thread.)
Last edited by Hyperworm on Mon 02.18.2008 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: ~の考えには

Postby katafei » Mon 02.18.2008 3:03 pm

Yes, and I'm very grateful for it.
Cocosan, I added all those verbs to my list of the translated sentences, which I use to listen and read.
I think 見る can be used as well, meaning something like:
I can't watch this (and not do something about it.....)
?
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RE: ~の考えには

Postby Oracle » Mon 02.18.2008 6:15 pm

two_heads_talking wrote:
but since the 〜かねる doesn't really mean can't (it's more of a hesitation or difficulty to do (as coco-san explains above)) you are stating a difficulty in or hesitation to do something.

In English "I can't do that" vs "I have difficulty doing that" are completely different in meaning. Of course the first means one is unable to do while the second means is able to do but with difficulty.

So, while not being argumentative, I really don't see the "can't" part of your explanation Oracle.)


No problem. I just think what's in the dictionary doesn't capture everything about how it is used in real life/cultural usage. I agree there are cases where 'hesitate to' would be an appropriate English translation, but mostly if you see できかねます for example in a formal letter or text it is really just a round-about/polite way of sayingできません.

example: If a company has 返金できかねます in the small print about some product or service, there's absolutely no point in asking them for a refund because they won't 'hesitate to' refund you, they simply won't..
It's like 難しい: If a Japanese person says doing something is going to be "むずかしい", the word itself simply means 'difficult' but other Japanese natives can read between the lines and they know it really means 'absolutely impossible' :)
Last edited by Oracle on Mon 02.18.2008 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: ~の考えには

Postby coco » Tue 02.19.2008 6:36 am

katafei wrote:
I think 見る can be used as well, meaning something like:
I can't watch this (and not do something about it.....)
?


Yes, very good point. Commonly 見かねる is used as an idiom 見るに見かねる。 :)

見るに見かねて
being unable to stand by
見るに見かねる
can't stand watching
〜を見るに見かねる
can't bear to see   --- from 英辞郎

This idom is commonly used with て form.
・母国の治安悪化を(見るに)見かねて、彼は選挙に立候補した。
・子供が泣いているのを(見るに)見かねて、声をかけた。

So you can't say 昨日は忙しかったので、その映画を見かねました。as
"I couldn't watch that movie because I was busy yesterday."
This case, we say 昨日は忙しかったので、その映画を[観ることができ/観られ]ませんでした。

昨日は忙しかったので、その映画を見逃してしまいました。is probably closer to
"I missed a chance to watch that movie because I was busy.”

---
Oracleさん、「(前向きに)検討します」阜サに耐えかねてたりして。 :D
Last edited by coco on Tue 02.19.2008 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: ~の考えには

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Tue 02.19.2008 9:51 am

Oracle wrote:
I've always considered 〜かねる to be the ultimate in diplomatic language: Only in Japanese could you express 'can't' to someone without using a single negative-form word in the sentence.


Please avoid using the library computers for personal use.
We are sorry, but only those over 21 are allowed to enter.
If you arrive after 8:00 you will be turned away.

No negative-form words in any of those sentences. :)
Last edited by Yudan Taiteki on Tue 02.19.2008 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: ~の考えには

Postby Wakannai » Wed 02.20.2008 12:02 am

Thanks Chris. I always love examples like this so I can use them whenever someone tries to make out as if Japanese were a truly strange language, when it's really not.

Although the "Why does Japanese have two words for the same thing?" question seems to be the most common question of that type. I always feel like asking, "What? You never heard of a Thesaurus?"
Last edited by Wakannai on Wed 02.20.2008 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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