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questions concerning 「うえ」

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questions concerning 「うえ」

Postby ss » Mon 05.26.2008 3:15 am

I don’t fully understand the grammar points of 「うえ」.
What does ~の・た+うえで(は)imply?

For example:
詳しいことはお目にかかっうえで、またご相談いたしましょう。
Let’s take about the details when we meet again. (??)
Let's talk about the details again after we meet each other.

キノコのスープは十分間煮うえで味をつけます。
Let the mushroom soup boil for 10 minutes then add seasoning. (??)
As for the mushroom soup, you add seasoning after you boil it for 10 minutes.

佐藤さんとスピーチコンテスト上での競争相手になった。
I became a rival to Satou san during a speech contest. (??)
On the stage of speech contest, I became a rival/competitor of Satou-san.

財政うえでは別に問題はない。
Financial wise, there isn’t any problem.
As far as financial issue, there isn't any problem.

Is this うえで has the meaning of 「方面」?
財政のうえでは別に問題はない。
財政の方面では別に問題はない。x
財政面(ざいせい・めん)では別に問題はない。

こうなったうえはしかたがない。
Since it has turned up like this, there’s no better way/solution. (??)
Now that it has come to this, there’s no other solution.


Thanks in advance for your help.
Please correct my English as well. 謝謝、いつも。
Last edited by ss on Wed 05.28.2008 4:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: questions concerning 「うえ」

Postby AJBryant » Tue 05.27.2008 6:04 am

The most simple answer is that "ue" here refers to the situation/event having taken place.

Think of it as a "since" or "now that" type of thing.

For example, 試験の上で is "upon examination," and 酒の上で is "under the influence of drink."
Any time you see a past-tense verb (say した) followed by 上(で)it means "now that (verb)" or "since (verb)" or "seeing as (verb)", and the sentence continues.

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Re: questions concerning 「うえ」

Postby coco » Tue 05.27.2008 7:53 am

『完全マスター』の説明にもあるように「上に/上で/上は」にはいくつかの意味があります。

①上で 「~してから」( 『完全マスター』48P)
詳しいことはお目にかかっうえで、またご相談いたしましょう。
Let’s take about the details when we meet again. (??)
We will take about the details when we meet again. (??)


SSさんのこの訳だと、
詳しいことはお目にかかったときに、またご相談いたしましょう。
となるのかもしれません。ここでは「~してから」「した後で」という解釈の方が自然です。
 ・詳しいことはお目にかかった上でまたご相談いたしましょう。
 ・詳しいことはお目にかかってからまたご相談いたしましょう。
  Let's talk (later/again) about the details after we meet each other. (?)
ここで言う「また」は、「また会う」ではなく、「再度話す(talk again)」の場合と「後で話す(talk later)」の両方の意味があり、前後の文脈によって意味が変わってきます。 この文章だけ読むと、later のように思えます。

キノコのスープは十分間煮うえで味をつけます。
Let the mushroom soup boil for 10 minutes then add seasoning. (??)

これは、thenですから、あっていると思います。
 ・キノコのスープは十分間煮てから味をつけます。
 As for the mushroom soup, you add seasoning after you boil it for 10 minutes. (?)

②上で  「その時/その場面では/その条件の範囲では」( 『完全マスター』49P)
佐藤さんとスピーチコンテストの上での競争相手になった。
I became a rival to Satou san during a speech contest. (??)

この解釈であっていると思います。
  On the stage of speech contest, I became a rival/competitor of Satou-san. (?)

財政うえでは別に問題はない。
Financial wise, there isn’t any problem.


この「の上では」は、「その条件の範囲では」の意味で、53Pの説明にある「~の視点から考えて」とほぼ同義で使われます。
 ・財政の上(うえ)では別に問題はない。
  Insofar as financial issues, there isn't any problem.(?)
 ・財政上(ざいせい・じょう)は別に問題はない。
  From a financial point of view, there isn't any problem. (?)
  (53P の「上(じょう)」(機能語番号88)に関してはここを参照)

Is this うえで has the meaning of 「方面」?
財政のうえでは別に問題はない。
財政の方面では別に問題はない。

方面 【ほうめん】 (n) direction; district; field (e.g. of study); (P); EP

「方面」を使っても間違いではありませんが、方面はdirection の意味で使われることが多く、field の意味で使われることは稀だと思います。一方、接尾語としての「面」はよく使われます。
 ・財政面(ざいせい・めん)では別に問題はない。

③上は 「~からには」( 『完全マスター』83P)
こうなったうえはしかたがない。
Since it has turned up like this, there’s no better way/solution. (???)

これであっていると思います。
この「上は」は、83Pの134にある「以上」と同じ使い方です。
 ・こうなった以上は仕方がない。= こうなった上は仕方がない。
( この文脈では「以上」の方がよく使われると思います。)

このページ の文法リストの中の「上」関係にこのスレッドのリンクをつけると読者に親切かもしれません。 :wink:
Last edited by coco on Tue 05.27.2008 8:03 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: questions concerning 「うえ」

Postby Hyperworm » Tue 05.27.2008 7:56 am

Ah, coco got there first XD
I'm sure all these points have already been covered, then, but having typed it all it'd be a waste not to post it, so here's some more help if you need it. From the dictionaries at Yahoo (I added translations).

(「…上で(は)」の形で)…という観点からは。…の面では。
・理論の―ではそうだが、実際はどうか
・暦の―ではもう春だ
・生活する―で特に支障はなさそうだ
・仕事の―で苦労が多い
・酒の―の失敗
・帳簿の―では黒字だ
(in the form "ue de (wa)") ...from the point of view of. ...in the area of. ...related to.
- That's true
as far as theory goes, but I'm not so sure about real life.
-
As far as the calendar goes, it's already summer.
- It doesn't look like there should be any problems
related to daily life.
- I have a lot of problems
related to work.
- A failure
related to alcohol.
-
As far as the account-book goes, we're in the black.
…に加えて。「ねだんが安い―に、品質が優れている」
...in addition. "In addition to it being inexpensive, its quality is excellent."
…したのち。…した結果。「相談した―で返事する」「知的探検家の努力の―に現代科学は築かれている」
...after having. ...as a result of having. "I will give you a reply after having discussed it." "Modern science is built up as a result of the great efforts of the intellectual explorers." <-? intelligent researchers??
するため。「勉学を続けて行く―に必要な学費」
...in order to. "The necessary expenses in order to continue your studies."
「うえは」の形で)…からには。「かくなる―はやむをえない」
(in the form "ue wa") kara ni wa (...now that. ...since. ...so long as.) "Now that this has happened, we have no choice."
fun translation snippets | need something translated?
BTC@1KMZXgoWiDshQis5Z7feCx8jaiP4QAB2ks
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Re: questions concerning 「うえ」

Postby coco » Tue 05.27.2008 8:05 am

Hyperworm wrote:Ah, coco got there first XD

しまった! あと3分待てばよかった。 :D
多岐にわたる「上X」を説明してくださって助かります。
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Re: questions concerning 「うえ」

Postby ss » Tue 05.27.2008 8:41 am

Thank you Papa, ここ姫 and Hyperworm-san for taking your precious time to explain.

ここさん、
Every day I study from 2級 『完全マスター』, our little friends there already know me well, but I still don't know them well ... :mrgreen:

I think if トニー王子 and ここ姫 work together, we will understand the sentence structures better.
(Papa, would you be so kind to confirm the English translation, since Coco-san also put (?) there :P )

edit---
Last edited by ss on Wed 05.28.2008 4:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: questions concerning 「うえ」

Postby AJBryant » Tue 05.27.2008 9:37 am

SS wrote:
(Papa, would you be so kind to confirm the English translation, since Coco-san also put (?) there :P )

I will work on those sentences again. Thanks.


Looked good to me.


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Re: questions concerning 「うえ」

Postby ss » Tue 05.27.2008 9:19 pm

Thank you once again, Papa.

------
>>> (I added translations).
Hyperworm-san, thank you so much for taking the time to type out, they have been great help.
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Re: questions concerning 「うえ」

Postby AJBryant » Wed 05.28.2008 8:37 am

For you, my dear... ;)


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Re: questions concerning 「うえ」

Postby ss » Wed 05.28.2008 8:45 pm

Papa, please pardon me for being so long-winded.

The past few weeks have really been quite difficult somehow. It's been a bit of a roller coaster of emotions, simply feeling ........ out of reach.

As I can see it now, it can be extremely daunting for us, learners, but I'd think it is possibly double or triple exhausting to teach. Hence, I am truly thankful to you, Coco-san and Hyperworm-san. A clear indication --- time, effort and patience are much needed.

I don’t remember who said this “every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward”. I just want to thank you for being so supportive, please keep up the great support, it means so much. Every response of yours is just another reminder of “hang in there!”

BIG THANKS.
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Re: questions concerning 「うえ」

Postby AJBryant » Thu 05.29.2008 8:03 am

I'm sorry things have been un-good lately.

I know when just one or two things go wrong here, that can set in motion a whole bummer of a day if I let it, and that just builds from there.

Don't let things get you down. (It's easy to say, but harder to do.)

We're here, hon.


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Re: questions concerning 「うえ」

Postby two_heads_talking » Thu 05.29.2008 12:42 pm

SS wrote:Papa, please pardon me for being so long-winded.

The past few weeks have really been quite difficult somehow. It's been a bit of a roller coaster of emotions, simply feeling ........ out of reach.

As I can see it now, it can be extremely daunting for us, learners, but I'd think it is possibly double or triple exhausting to teach. Hence, I am truly thankful to you, Coco-san and Hyperworm-san. A clear indication --- time, effort and patience are much needed.

I don’t remember who said this “every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward”. I just want to thank you for being so supportive, please keep up the great support, it means so much. Every response of yours is just another reminder of “hang in there!”

BIG THANKS.


"I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward." -
-- Thomas Alva Edison

Thomas Edison "failed" thousands of times before he created the lightbulb. 40,000 pages of notes and 1600 materials were required just to get the correct filament to pass a 40 hour test.

Edison certainly saw that he had flaws and bad days, but he also looked at the end of each day for shimmer of something good (progress) to take into the next day, where he would start afresh and begin again. I could go on and on about his ups and downs, but suffice it to say, we all go through roller coasters of life. The best we can do, is to look for the positive and let others also see the positive and move forward every day.
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Re: questions concerning 「うえ」

Postby Bucko » Thu 05.29.2008 3:59 pm

This is a useful post and I feel like I should add to it as 'ue de' has often confused me. I think it's handy to know why the word meaning "above" is used in this way. A Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar says that "it is used to express an idea that someone will do something rather important (quite often decision making) after they have done something as a preparatory action. The image is that the action expressed in the main clause is ON TOP OF the accompanying action".

So using the following sentence:

詳しいことはお目にかかったうえで、またご相談いたしましょう。

we can see that order to discuss whatever it is in detail it requires meeting as prerequesite. I.e. we will discuss the particulars again upon meeting.

Here's another example:
面接の上で、採否を決めます
We will decide on adoption upon interview. Or, after an interview we will decide whether or not to approve the adoption.

Another interesting point ADoIJG makes is that the noun in の上で is typically a noun of investigation, interview, discussion and the like. And the noun is usually a Sino-Japanese noun that takes をする

A better translation for 佐藤さんとスピーチコンテストの上での競争相手になった would be "I became Sato's rival AFTER the speech contest". I.e. the speech contest was the prerequesite for this person becoming rivals with Sato and if it wasn't for the speech contest he wouldn't be rivals now.

Also, the difference between の上で and てから is that てから is used solely to indicate time sequence, but の上で is used to indicate preparation for a relatively important action.

ADoIJG gives the example of:
ジョーンズさんは必ずシャワーを浴びてから寝る
With this sentence it's not possible to say 浴びた上で because taking the shower is not necessary for Jones-san to sleep.

Also note that の上では and じょう are different.

の上では and 上(じょう) mean "from the viewpoint of x" "x-wise", "x-ly speaking" or "as far as x is concerned". A common phrase you might see is 法律の上では which means "legally speaking" or "legal-wise" or "from a legal point of view" etc.

I also admit that I haven't fully come to grips with 以上は so can't comment on how 上は works in relation to this.

Hope this helps.
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Re: questions concerning 「うえ」

Postby coco » Thu 05.29.2008 10:22 pm

Buckoさん、詳しいご説明をありがとうございます。
非常に参考になります。 :)
ひとつ疑問に思ったことがありますので、質問させてください。
Bucko wrote:A better translation for 佐藤さんとスピーチコンテストの上での競争相手になった would be "I became Sato's rival AFTER the speech contest". I.e. the speech contest was the prerequesite for this person becoming rivals with Sato and if it wasn't for the speech contest he wouldn't be rivals now.


この「上で(の)」は状況限定の役割ではないでしょうか。
佐藤さんと競争相手になったのは、スピーチコンテストという状況に限ってのことで、たとえスピーチコンテストが1ヶ月にわたって行われたとしても、スピーチコンテストで順位を競う以外の関係性は言及されていません。普段は仲のいい友人である、ということも考えられます。
「テニスの試合でいつもダブルスを組んでいる佐藤さんがスピーチコンテストの上での競争相手になった」という状況もあり得ます。
Buckoさんの英語を私が正しく理解していないのかもしれませんが、「スピーチコンテストの後で競争相手になった」「スピーチコンテスト故にライバル関係になった/陥った」という解釈でしたら、それは違うのではないかと思います。
Last edited by coco on Fri 05.30.2008 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: questions concerning 「うえ」

Postby ss » Thu 05.29.2008 10:58 pm

Bucko-san, thank you very much for taking your precious time to further explain the use of “ue de”.
I don’t recall seeing you around often, but your input is definitely a big help, highly appreciated.

-----
Tony wrote:
Don't let things get you down. (It's easy to say, but harder to do.)

We're here, hon.


Papa, I hear you, my heartfelt thanks (again) for the encouragement. <3
I probably need a good break from my job. Very little time to study ..... too busy with the traveling, conferences, etc. ... exhausting.

------
Thank you uncle two-heads, I’m slowly getting a grip on myself. ^_^

-----
And now, I need some times to figure out Coco-san's post. Will follow up.
Last edited by ss on Wed 06.11.2008 5:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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