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Grammar questions: ~bai and ~shi.

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Grammar questions: ~bai and ~shi.

Postby cmcswiggen » Sat 08.27.2005 9:18 pm

How do you attach a clause to "bai"?

I know that you can stick i-adjectives and other forms that behave like i-adjectives (e.g. negative verbs) to "bai," but what if you want to use "bai" on a positive verb? Do you just use the dictionary form (taberu bai)? What if you want to use the copula with it?

Also, I'm aware that "shi" can be used in this way:

"Ame ga futteta shi kuruma ga kudaketa kara kesa kaisha ni ikitakunakatta."

It was raining and the car was broken, so I didn't want to go into the office today.

How else is "shi" used?


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RE: Grammar questions: ~bai and ~shi.

Postby Spaztick » Sat 08.27.2005 11:03 pm

Just moved it ot the appropriate forum.
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RE: Grammar questions: ~bai and ~shi.

Postby Harisenbon » Sun 08.28.2005 2:26 am

I'm not sure about the -bai copula. It's not ringing a bell for me. Do you have an example? I can think of baai 場合, which means "In the case of" 食べなかった場合 -- In case you didn't eat. In that case, you can just stick it on the end of a negative or positive verb. 食べた場合, etc.

し as a copula is used for listing various things with a "because" meaning. For example, 万博に行ったけど、列が長かったし、暑かったし、お腹が空いたから、早く帰っちゃった。

I believe that's the only time that し is used as a copula, but I may have just forgotten one.
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RE: Grammar questions: ~bai and ~shi.

Postby cmcswiggen » Sun 08.28.2005 3:16 am

Thanks. Yes, "場合" is what I was thinking of. That was a mistransliteration on my part. I've only ever heard it spoken.

I'm not trying to use 場合as a copula; I just want to know how to use it to say "in the case that it's a (noun)."

And while I'm at it, I'd like to know how to apply "shi" to nouns too. ^^
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RE: Grammar questions: ~bai and ~shi.

Postby CviCvraeVtMoriar » Sun 08.28.2005 5:48 am

Is that a copula or an enclitic? It seems very useful. Is it used with any frequency? If not, what is more frequently used to say, "In the case that {something}"? A simple conditional?

BTY, if you can use it with a noun, a safe bet is 「{noun}の場合」. If you don't want to take any chances you could almost certainly say 「{noun}である場合」 ("In the case that it is 'ー'.") (this might be a little formal.) .....Oooor you could just wait for Harisenbon's far more informed opinion... that would certainly be the better option.
Last edited by CviCvraeVtMoriar on Sun 08.28.2005 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Grammar questions: ~bai and ~shi.

Postby Harisenbon » Sun 08.28.2005 6:16 am

Noun の場合 is definately ok.

し can't be used with nouns, I'm 90 percent sure. You should use や、か、と or とか
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RE: Grammar questions: ~bai and ~shi.

Postby Mukade » Sun 08.28.2005 9:50 am

Harisenbon wrote:
Noun の場合 is definately ok.

し can't be used with nouns, I'm 90 percent sure. You should use や、か、と or とか


You can use it with nouns, just be sure to add だ before the し.

田中ちゃんがきれいだけど、ボイフレンドはやくざだし。。。 :o

cmcswiggen wrote:
I'm not trying to use 場合as a copula; I just want to know how to use it to say "in the case that it's a (noun)."


It's possible to use 場合 in this sense, but a much more natural form (if I'm understanding your question) would be to say (noun)だったら.

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RE: Grammar questions: ~bai and ~shi.

Postby Mukade » Sun 08.28.2005 9:58 am

Harisenbon wrote:
I believe that's the only time that し is used as a copula, but I may have just forgotten one.


It's the only time I've ever seen it used as a copula before.

One interesting thing I stumbled across, though, is mention of the use of し in adjectives to indicate qualities that cannot be objectively measured.

This し is already a part of the adjective for all intents and purposes, but I think it's interesting (for grammar geeks like us) to note that all 〜い adjectives that contain a し before that final い are subjective qualities, whereas any adjectives without that し are objective descriptors.

Examples:
い strict
い fun
美味い delicious

赤い red
高い tall
太い fat

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