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About the use of な

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About the use of な

Postby astaroth » Wed 07.15.2009 7:00 pm

I got a bit confused on the use of な while reading thread.
I thought な was a masculine gobi, like ね and the feminine わ, but then because of the movie 人のセックスを笑うな I learned it's actually the imperative inflection of a verb.

Am I right that きれいだな is the casual form for きれいですね?
But what about a sentence that ends with a verb ...? Is な always in these cases just the imperative or can it also act like ね?

Thanks in advance ... hope the question makes sense, but it seems today I'm going through some kind of aphasic period.
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Re: About the use of な

Postby RayMasaki » Wed 07.15.2009 7:13 pm

Not really you would have to say
kirei na desu ne.
I think. alot of Japanese use informal so
youll hear it said different ways.
shizuka na - quietly
or just sometimes drop the "Desu ne"
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Re: About the use of な

Postby keatonatron » Wed 07.15.2009 7:47 pm

RayMasaki wrote:kirei na desu ne.


This is incorrect.

You can say kirei desu or kirei da to end a sentence. Kirei na can only be used directly before a noun or before the connector "no ni" (and a few other places).

Astaroth:

Do you really think there's only one use for the character な? :wink:

You are correct in both cases--verb + な creates the (rude) negative command form. Also, な at the end of a sentence is similar to ね, but fairly masculine.

Similar to usage number two, it is also used a lot when someone is talking to themselves. For these types of sentences, the pronunciation of な is usually drawn out, and ね cannot be used (i.e. な and ね can be used to elicit a response from the listener or show shared feelings; only な can be used when one is talking to themselves [like with the ender かな]).

So then, what about when you want to use な with the dictionary form of a verb? Does that automatically change the verb's conjugation?

The answer is no. And, like many things in Japanese, confusion is avoided by context and intonation.

Consider a sentence that ends with 違うな. Since 違う is not an action someone can do, how can you command someone not to do it? In this case, 違うな could only be the masculine form of 違うね or someone talking to themselves ("aw darn, it's wrong." etc.)

For understanding which meaning is in use, context is really the only way to know for sure.
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Re: About the use of な

Postby Harisenbon » Wed 07.15.2009 7:48 pm

astaroth wrote:Am I right that きれいだな is the casual form for きれいですね?
But what about a sentence that ends with a verb ...? Is な always in these cases just the imperative or can it also act like ね?


As I said in the other thread, な can be used as a inflector just like ね (but a little stronger) and can be used by both men and women (although I think traditionally men are more common).

However, when you put it after the plain form of a verb わらうな then it turns into the negative command form for the verb (Don't laugh).
Putting it after the present form わらっているな (He's laughing) serves as an inflector.
I'm almost 100% positive it works as an inflector in past tense as well わらったな, but now that I'm starting to think about what sounds natural and what doesn't, I'm starting to doubt myself (like looking at the spelling of a word for so long that it loses all meaning).

Does that help at all?

EDIT: Dammit, Keat beat me by a second.

but some nice points!

Consider a sentence that ends with 違うな. Since 違う is not an action someone can do, how can you command someone not to do it? In this case, 違うな could only be the masculine form of 違うね or someone talking to themselves ("aw darn, it's wrong." etc.)


I hadn't even thought of that example. . . Nice one! :D
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Re: About the use of な

Postby Gundaetiapo » Wed 07.15.2009 10:23 pm

Also, <verb stem>+な can be the affirmative imperative. From the Space ALC:

せっかく来たんだから彼女にもう一度会っていきなよ。
Since you came all the way, try going to see her again.

それは良くないな。ジャンクフードはあげないようにしなよ。
That's not good. Try not to let her have any junk food.

This is a truncation of ~なさい.
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Re: About the use of な

Postby RayMasaki » Wed 07.15.2009 11:50 pm

きれいな はなですね
kirei na Hana desu ne
大きいな 山ですね
oukii na yama desu ne
is what i meant.
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Re: About the use of な

Postby Sairana » Wed 07.15.2009 11:52 pm

RayMasaki wrote:きれいな はなですね
kirei na Hana desu ne
大きいな 山ですね
oukii na yama desu ne
is what i meant.


Even so, his question isn't about な-adjectives, but the gobi な vs. the negative imperative な
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Re: About the use of な

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Thu 07.16.2009 8:09 am

大きい山

大きな山

If you have the extra い, you can't use な.
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Re: About the use of な

Postby astaroth » Thu 07.16.2009 9:22 am

keatonatron wrote:Do you really think there's only one use for the character な? :wink:

No ... :oops: ... but I so much hoped for :)

keatonatron wrote:the pronunciation of な is usually drawn out, and ね cannot be used

I'm a little confused about this bit. Do you mean in this case (someone's talking with themselves) な has the same function of かな?

keatonatron wrote:Consider a sentence that ends with 違うな. Since 違う is not an action someone can do, how can you command someone not to do it? In this case, 違うな could only be the masculine form of 違うね or someone talking to themselves ("aw darn, it's wrong." etc.)

I see. Thanks.

Harisenbon wrote:As I said in the other thread, な can be used as a inflector just like ね (but a little stronger) and can be used by both men and women (although I think traditionally men are more common).

Sorry, Harisenbon. I did read your reply, but then I was still a bit confused and didn't want to reply on that thread as the question had nothing to do with movies.

Harisenbon wrote:However, when you put it after the plain form of a verb わらうな then it turns into the negative command form for the verb (Don't laugh).
Putting it after the present form わらっているな (He's laughing) serves as an inflector.

I see. This example helps ... it does make sense that in one case is a negative imperative and in the other a question tag.
Harisenbon wrote:I'm almost 100% positive it works as an inflector in past tense as well わらったな, but now that I'm starting to think about what sounds natural and what doesn't, I'm starting to doubt myself (like looking at the spelling of a word for so long that it loses all meaning).

Though usually an imperative is either in future or in the present. I mean it doesn't seem natural to prohibit an action that already occurred, does it?

Gundaetiapo wrote:Also, <verb stem>+な can be the affirmative imperative. From the Space ALC:
This is a truncation of ~なさい.

Thanks. I didn't know this bit ... learned something new ... :)
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Re: About the use of な

Postby keatonatron » Thu 07.16.2009 9:58 am

astaroth wrote:I'm a little confused about this bit. Do you mean in this case (someone's talking with themselves) な has the same function of かな?


かな has a sense of wondering to it ("is it really so??").
Just な is making an observation with amazement or some other feeling ("Wow, it really is so!").

Harisenbon wrote:However, when you put it after the plain form of a verb わらうな then it turns into the negative command form for the verb (Don't laugh).
Putting it after the present form わらっているな (He's laughing) serves as an inflector.

I see. This example helps ... it does make sense that in one case is a negative imperative and in the other a question tag.


Question tag? There is no question here. :?
Harisen was just saying that the negative command form only works with the dictionary form of a verb.

Harisenbon wrote:I'm almost 100% positive it works as an inflector in past tense as well わらったな, but now that I'm starting to think about what sounds natural and what doesn't, I'm starting to doubt myself (like looking at the spelling of a word for so long that it loses all meaning).

Though usually an imperative is either in future or in the present. I mean it doesn't seem natural to prohibit an action that already occurred, does it?


Notice he said "inflector", not "imperative". An "inflector" is the thing I was talking about at the very beginning of this post. :wink:
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Re: About the use of な

Postby coco » Thu 07.16.2009 10:22 am

おもしろいご質問です。

まず、終助詞「な」の意味を確認しましょう。
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn/142 ... %E3%81%AA/
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn/142 ... %E3%81%AA/
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn/142 ... %E3%81%AA/

多くの場合は、keatさんの言うように文脈でわかりますが
一文だけだと判断できないものもあります。
たとえば、 

「明日は雨だと思うな」
と、女の子が言った場合は、
"I think it will rain tomorrow (?)"の意味だと解釈されますが、

雨天中止の野球の試合に臨む野球部の部員に向かって、試合の前日にコーチが
「明日は雨だと思うな!」
と言った場合は
"Do not expect that it will rain tomorrow!(?)" だと考えられます。

語調とイントネーショが違うので、実際にその場にいれば意味を取り違えることはないと思います。
-----
Edit: tommorow → tomorrow ...orz
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Re: About the use of な

Postby astaroth » Fri 07.17.2009 11:14 am

keatonatron wrote:Question tag? There is no question here. :?
Harisen was just saying that the negative command form only works with the dictionary form of a verb.

Question tag is what I was taught the isn't it in English is called ... like: it's a car, isn't it?
coco wrote:多くの場合は、keatさんの言うように文脈でわかりますが
一文だけだと判断できないものもあります。
たとえば、 

cocoさん、説明ありがとう。その例文を読んでから、その終助詞の使い方はよく分かります。
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Re: About the use of な

Postby coco » Fri 07.17.2009 5:14 pm

ちなみに平成17(2005)年に出題された3級の過去問題では、禁止を表す使い方として
ここに 車を ____。 じゃまだ。

1 止まるな  2 止めるな  3 止めろな  4 止まれな

が文法問題で出ています。 

禁止ではない使い方としては、聴解問題で

M :  今週の金曜日か土曜日、映画に行かない?
F :  今週か、3日(みっか)、4日(よっか)ね。
M :  僕は土曜日より金曜日のほうがいい
F :   じゃ、3日? ちょっと手帳見てみる。あ、ごめん今週はだめだー。
M :  来週は?
F :   来週はいいよ。じゃ、金曜日ね。
M :  楽しみにしてるよ。  

がありました。 (質問は「二人(ふたり)はいつ映画に行きますか」です。)

確かに終助詞は難しいですよね。

・出て行な (1 行為の禁止表現。 2 誰かが出ていくと予想する表現。)
・出て行な ( 行為の命令あるいは勧告) 
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