Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

View topic - 伺います and 参ります (in the sense of 行きます)

伺います and 参ります (in the sense of 行きます)

Have a Question about some Grammar point? Share it with the world!

伺います and 参ります (in the sense of 行きます)

Postby ThePacster » Sat 08.15.2009 2:58 pm

Another day, another chapter, another question. :lol:

This chapter covers humble expressions, and for the most part everything is understandable and I just need to practice. But for some reason I feel confused about these two words.

参ります in my book is the humble equivalent of both きます and いきます.

伺います on the other hand is the humble equivalent of ききます and as my book puts it (うちへ)いきます.

Speaking strictly in the sense of いきます, can someone help me find the distinction between these two humble words if there is one. Its just not clicking for me.
ThePacster
 
Posts: 124
Joined: Wed 06.07.2006 11:54 am

Re: 伺います and 参ります (in the sense of 行きます)

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sat 08.15.2009 3:32 pm

Perhaps think of 伺う as "visit" and 参る as "go" or "come"?
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

Re: 伺います and 参ります (in the sense of 行きます)

Postby NileCat » Sat 08.15.2009 3:57 pm

Your question is no doubt the most difficult one I have ever seen in this forum.
I suppose nine out of ten couldn't explain it properly. In normal Japanese people, I mean.
And unfortunately, I am one in the nine.
I recommend you to look up the correct grammatical definition in a proper dictionary, but here are some examples I found on the net that might help you to grasp the idea. It is not explaining everything though, it is correct at least in our modern usage.

相手と自分が東京にいて、自分または自分の身内(自社の社長など)が明日大阪へ行く場合
「明日、私は大阪へ参ります。」「明日、社長は大阪へ参ります。」
ふだん相手がいる場所(相手の家やオフィス)へ行く場合
「明日、私がお伺いします。」「明日、社長がお伺いします。」

Well, I know it seems very complicated. But believe me. Same here.

EDIT: Even in those exsamples above, I noticed there can be possible exceptional occasions when they are interchangeable.
I'm sorry. This issue is beyond my depth. :(
EDIT2: Hmm...Chris's opinion seems plausible (in a good sense). But the problem is that I don't know the border between the two English words....
EDIT3: Anyway, it's too late to erase my whole comment, isn't it ? :oops:
User avatar
NileCat
 
Posts: 1168
Joined: Sat 08.01.2009 2:11 pm
Location: Tokyo
Native language: Japanese

Re: 伺います and 参ります (in the sense of 行きます)

Postby NileCat » Sat 08.15.2009 8:34 pm

ネイティブ日本人としての誇りと意地にかけて、必死でググってみました。
しかし、ネット上にも明らかな間違いがいっぱいありました。

2007年に作られた、政府機関である文化庁の文化審議会答申「敬語の指針」が、
現在のところ最も信頼できるソースのように見えます。
http://www.bunka.go.jp/kokugo_nihongo/b ... f#search='参る 伺う'

実用上は、Chrisさんの解釈、「visit」と「go/come」で、たいていの場合OKだと思います。
が、やはり例外があります。たとえば・・・

P19:
謙譲語Ⅰの場合、例えば「先生のところに伺います。」とは言えるが、「弟のところに伺います。」は不自然である。これは、初めの例では<向かう先>である「先生」が「立てるにふさわしい」対象となるのに対し、後の例の「弟」は「立てる対象」とはならないためである。
一方、謙譲語Ⅱの場合は、例えば「先生のところに参ります」とも言えるし、「弟のところに参ります」とも言える。謙譲語Ⅱは、<相手>に対する敬語であるため、このように、立てるのにふさわしい<向かう先>があってもなくても使うことができるのである。

It seems that I'm just confusing you more.
I'm sorry. But as long as you wrote:
Speaking strictly in the sense of いきます

That was the most "strictly precise" answer I could find.
User avatar
NileCat
 
Posts: 1168
Joined: Sat 08.01.2009 2:11 pm
Location: Tokyo
Native language: Japanese

Re: 伺います and 参ります (in the sense of 行きます)

Postby coco » Sat 08.15.2009 9:20 pm

There are many interpretations about 敬語. But I think an official guideline is good to rely on.

New 敬語 guideline was presented in 2007.

According to the guideline;
伺う is categorized 謙譲語1.
参る is categorized 謙譲語2 (丁重語).

謙譲語1 is defined as

自分側から相手側又は第三者に向かう行為・ものごとなどについて,その向かう先の人物を立てて述べるもの。

謙譲語2 is,
自分側の行為・ものごとなどを,話や文章の相手に対して丁重に述べるもの。


An action in 謙譲語1 needs a person whom you are going to do something and whom you (have to) respect. A act-related word categorized in 謙譲語1 has a role which shows your respectful sense to the person who is the object(?) of your act.

However, you can use a word categorized 謙譲語2 without a person who is the object of your act. It has a role which shows your respectful sense to a person whom you are talking.

Example:
明日、先生のお宅にお伺いします。
  先生 is the person who is the object(?) of the speaker's act.  
The speaker shows the respectful sense to the teacher.

明日から海外へ参ります。
The speaker shows the respectful sense to a listener or a reader.

Hope my poor English makes sense.
coco
 
Posts: 3061
Joined: Mon 05.30.2005 12:43 am
Location: 東京都
Native language: 日本語(Japanese)

Re: 伺います and 参ります (in the sense of 行きます)

Postby NileCat » Sun 08.16.2009 5:57 am

Does anyone know if the English translation of the official guideline is available ?
Thank you.

EDIT: I meant 'whole of the guideline', coco. :)
User avatar
NileCat
 
Posts: 1168
Joined: Sat 08.01.2009 2:11 pm
Location: Tokyo
Native language: Japanese

Re: 伺います and 参ります (in the sense of 行きます)

Postby coco » Sun 08.16.2009 8:32 pm

NileCat wrote:Does anyone know if the English translation of the official guideline is available ?
Thank you.

EDIT: I meant 'whole of the guideline', coco. :)

文化庁に尋ねてみましたが、英文はないそうです。
今のところ英語版の発行予定もないとのことでした。
coco
 
Posts: 3061
Joined: Mon 05.30.2005 12:43 am
Location: 東京都
Native language: 日本語(Japanese)

Re: 伺います and 参ります (in the sense of 行きます)

Postby NileCat » Mon 08.17.2009 5:16 am

coco 様

わざわざお骨折り頂いて恐縮です。
ご親切なお心遣い本当に痛み入ります。 :)
User avatar
NileCat
 
Posts: 1168
Joined: Sat 08.01.2009 2:11 pm
Location: Tokyo
Native language: Japanese


Return to Grammar Questions and Problems

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests