Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

View topic - Trying to figure out some lines from 日本人の知らない日本語

Trying to figure out some lines from 日本人の知らない日本語

Have a Question about some Grammar point? Share it with the world!

Trying to figure out some lines from 日本人の知らない日本語

Postby phreadom » Sat 08.29.2009 10:42 am

We were having a discussion in the lounge a day or two ago after ちーよんさん mentioned that she'd bought a new book. She was pasting a few lines from the book and I was trying to translate them.

I felt I was doing reasonably well (given my pathetic skill level), but the final phrase (before I gave up with a hurt brain) really had me stumped. :( I was hoping someone here might be able to help explain it to me in a way that would help me to understand it? (See the specific quote below the conversation for the part I need more help with.)

ちーよん: I bought funny book for me today.
phreadom: ちーよん: which book? :)
ちーよん: 日本人の知らない日本語 っていう本です~
ちーよん: it's a comic book which has the (funny kind of ) battle of Japanese teacher and Japanese learning students.
phreadom: ちーよん: ah... someone mentioned that earlier today.
ちーよん: really~~~~?!
phreadom: someone else bought it...
ちーよん: I saw that book was piled up at the enter of the book shop and just pick it up, look in and laughed, then bought it.
phreadom: ah, it was astaroth on the forum. :)
phreadom: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13671&p=157009#p157009
ちーよん: そうそう、漫画なんで、ふりがながついています~
ちーよん: I think much easier to read than 村上春樹
ちーよん: back of the book has the conversation between the teacher and one student.
あれー 珍しいな キムさんはいつも優秀なのに
宿題ずいぶん間違ってたけど、何かあったの?

ちーよん: ↑that is the teacher said , then
生徒:ーーーーー・・・・・ 日本人の生徒にやってもらったのに! 
先生:そいつをここに連れてこい!

ちーよん: 日本人の友達に* やってもらったのに!
***phreadom tries to translate... ;)
ちーよん: がんばれ~~ ^^ 
ちーよん: 答 (I hope it's correct...... ^^;)
teacher:hm? it's rare that Kim is usually excellent, but there were many mistakes in your homework this time. something happening?
student:ーーーーー......... My Japanese friend did it for me though!
teacher: bring that person here!

phreadom: that's basically what I got from it.
phreadom: I thought it said "My Japanese friend gave it to me"
phreadom: ah, I see...
phreadom: 遣って
phreadom: the last line was a little confusing too.
ちーよん: 「日本の友達にやってもらった」
やってもらう→ someone do something for you
phreadom: 先生:そいつ <-- that person を ここ <-- here に 連れてこい <-- bring!
ちーよん: (やってもらう=you were given the action やる from someone )
ちーよん: that's it~ 
ちーよん: やる=する=do
phreadom: :D
ちーよん: 日本語学校入学式で

校長先生が日本語で:日本語のわからない人手をあげて
先生が思ってる:ちょ・・・それ、誰があげるんだ。日本語で聞いてどーする。・・・・・・あげる人いた!! しかもいっぱいいた

phreadom: In the Japanese Language School Entrance Ceremony:
phreadom: High School Principal (In Japanese): Those who do not understand Japanese raise their hands.
phreadom: (how is that so far?)
ちーよん:
ちーよん: すみません ちょっと電話です^^;brb
phreadom: はいはい
ちーよん: still calling but I think it's perfect so far~
phreadom: k
***phreadom continues.
ちーよん: 日本語学校 Japanese language school
入学式 entrance ceremony
で:at
校長先生 principal
日本語で in Japanese
わかる understand
人 person
手 hand(s)
あげる raise
思う think
ちょ・・・・ abbreviation of ちょっと待って(ください)
      wait
誰 who
日本語で by Japanese
聞く ask
どう how
しかも additionally
いっぱい crowded many ?

somiac: konbanwa
ちーよん: こんばんはー>somiac
ちーよん: phreadom doesn't speak in Japanese so much, but you are understanding Japanese parfectly ...... I didn't know that~ 
ちーよん: >phreadom
phreadom: I'm working on the last part. :) it's giving me more trouble than the first part. ;)
ちーよん: yeah, it seems to be more difficult than the first part......
phreadom: somiac: こんばんは~ :)
somiac: arigatou
ちーよん: 先生が思ってる:ちょ・・・それ、誰があげるんだ。日本語で聞いてどーする。・・・・・・あげる人いた!! しかもいっぱいいた
ちーよん: we are trying to translate this part into English now.....>somiac
まっちゃん: 話見えないから訳すのが難しいですね
ちーよん: あ、そっか。じゃ、最初からもう一回?
ちーよん: 日本語学校入学式で

校長先生が日本語で:日本語のわからない人手をあげて
先生が思ってる:ちょ・・・それ、誰があげるんだ。日本語で聞いてどーする。・・・・・・あげる人いた!! しかもいっぱいいた

phreadom: (The teacher thinks): wait... then who raises their hand. How could they listen in Japanese? People raised their hands! (they did it again?) <-- I don't understand that last part at all. :(
ちーよん: ↑ this is the story and phreadom translated to the middle of it.....like

In the Japanese Language School Entrance Ceremony:
High School Principal (In Japanese): Those who do not understand Japanese raise their hands.

phreadom: むずかしいですよね :/
phreadom: heh
まっちゃん: aa
まっちゃん: it's hard to put it in words... lol
ちーよん: I think it's perfect other than しかもいっぱいいた
まっちゃん: or I'm just tired >_>
phreadom: yeah, I don't know that part at all. :(
まっちゃん: "however, a lot of people raised their hands" maybe?:P
ちーよん: 「しかも」って、 however?
まっちゃん: aa, "moreover"かな?
phreadom: "nevertheless they did it anyway." ?
ちーよん: あああ、なるほど、moreover ~ 
ちーよん: additionally じゃ、変?
まっちゃん: うん。そうですね。ちょっとね
まっちゃん: 朝ご飯つくりに行くんですぐに戻る~
ちーよん: I don't think it's nevertheless, either.... it means....
not only there were people who raised up their hands, but there were more people who raised up their hands.

ちーよん: いってらっしゃい~>まっちゃん
phreadom: that seems really hard to wrap my head around. :/
phreadom: I might even want to post that on the forum to get some feedback on it. :)
phreadom: help me really understand each part.
ちーよん: each part? from the first again?
phreadom: well, the last part... that I had so much trouble with.
phreadom: the first part makes sense to me... but the last part, even when you say what it means, is hard for me to understand how the Japanese translates to that in English.
ちーよん: あげる人いた!! しかもいっぱいいた
↑ this part?
まっちゃん: ただいまです~
ちーよん: あげる人いた!!=(手を )あげる人(が)いた。we omit many words in conversation if understand without saying it.
~がいる=there are (is)~. (for the living things ~がある for no living things )
there were people who raise up hands.
and maybe it's more natural to say
People raised their hands! like phreadom said.

まっちゃん: so i was right? at that last sentence
ちーよん: and then, しかもいっぱいいた
しかもいっぱいいた=しかも、手を上げる人がいっぱいいた。

まっちゃん: "however" is like "but" ^^
ちーよん: I think しかも is the point here....
ちーよん: what does it mean......
まっちゃん: sounds a little like しかし :P
ちーよん: I guess it's "moreover" like まっちゃん said
まっちゃん: myea
ちーよん: and rest of the sentence is same with the one before that.
ちーよん: adding いっぱい 
ちーよん: いっぱい is "many" or "a lot of "

ちーよん: so, I think まっちゃん was right to say
"moreover, a lot of people raised their hands. "

ちーよん: I found the word, "furthermore"
ちーよん: for しかも
ちーよん: are moreover and furthermore similar?
まっちゃん: yea quite
ちーよん: じゃ、そういうことですね~
まっちゃん: そうですねぇ


The part I was specifically really having trouble wrapping my head around was:

日本語学校入学式で

校長先生が日本語で:日本語のわからない人手をあげて
先生が思ってる:ちょ・・・それ、誰があげるんだ。日本語で聞いてどーする。・・・・・・あげる人いた!! しかもいっぱいいた


(the part in bold)

Even with ちーよんさん's expansion on it, I still can't wrap my head around it and was hoping someone could try to explain this in a way that would help me understand it? :( Thank you in advance!

(Feel free to comment on other parts as well if you're feeling particularly bored or ambitious! ;) hehe)
猿も木から落ちる
User avatar
phreadom
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1762
Joined: Sun 01.29.2006 8:43 pm
Location: Michigan, USA
Native language: U.S. English (米語)
Gender: Male

Re: Trying to figure out some lines from 日本人の知らない日本語

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sat 08.29.2009 11:11 am

It's sort of like "People raised their hands!...what's more, lots of people raised their hands!" In other words, at a Japanese entrance ceremony you wouldn't expect anyone to raise their hands in response to the question "Who doesn't understand Japanese" -- not only did people raise their hands, but *a lot* of people did. It was surprising enough that anyone raised their hands, let alone lots of people.

しかも = Moreover, what's more
いっぱい = Lots
いた = [There] were

しかも means "in additional to what was just said"; it's a conjunction word that doesn't directly express any amount of people (the large amount is expressed by いっぱい).

Does that help at all?

EDIT: Alc.co.jp has a good number of example sentences for しかも; even if you can't understand the Japanese sentences, the English translations should give you a good idea of the feeling that しかも expresses.
http://eow.alc.co.jp/%E3%81%97%E3%81%8B ... -8/?ref=sa
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

Re: Trying to figure out some lines from 日本人の知らない日本語

Postby becki_kanou » Sat 08.29.2009 11:12 am

I think ちーよん explained it almost perfectly here:
ちーよん wrote: I don't think it's neverthless, either.... it means....
not only there were people who raised up their hands, but there were more people who raised up their hands.


Just switch "more" for "many" and it's perfect. しかも is "and" but with a sense of "not only A but also B"

Here's a basic example you'll probably hear a lot:
このレストランはおいしい、しかも安い! 
This restaurant is delicious, and (not only that), it's also cheap!

Here's the first result from Google:
大容量で高機能、しかも無料!!
(It has) a large capacity and high functionality, and (not only that but) it's free!

And another:
国際結婚しかも子連れ再婚(ステップファミリーのフランス生活)
An international marriage (and not only that but) with kids from a previous marriage. (A step-family's life in France)

Does that help at all?
そうだ、嬉しいんだ、生きる喜び!
例え胸の傷が痛んでも。
User avatar
becki_kanou
 
Posts: 3402
Joined: Sat 04.19.2008 10:09 pm
Location: Hyogo, Japan
Skype chat: yes_becki
Native language: U.S. English, 米語
Gender: Female

Re: Trying to figure out some lines from 日本人の知らない日本語

Postby phreadom » Sat 08.29.2009 11:39 am

Yes, those explanations helped a lot. :D

I think my problem is coming from some association in my head with "もういっぱい" or something as though it means "again" as in "say it again" or something. So my head was thinking しかもいっぱいいた meant something like "never the less it did it again" or something, instead of "not only that, but a lot did!"

Where is this wrong association coming from? :(
猿も木から落ちる
User avatar
phreadom
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1762
Joined: Sun 01.29.2006 8:43 pm
Location: Michigan, USA
Native language: U.S. English (米語)
Gender: Male

Re: Trying to figure out some lines from 日本人の知らない日本語

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sat 08.29.2009 11:44 am

もう一回(いっかい) means "one more time", so perhaps that's it.

いっぱい can be a slightly confusing word because it can mean either "one glass [i.e. of drink]" or "lots". Even in a food situation, もういっぱい could mean either "I'm full" or "One more glass", although the context would make it pretty clear which was which.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

Re: Trying to figure out some lines from 日本人の知らない日本語

Postby astaroth » Sat 08.29.2009 11:46 am

「もういっぱいですか」maybe? When someone asks you if you want another cup of tea, coffee, water, and so on ... I think.

By the way ... wow I've been cited on the chat! :oops:
I still hadn't started reading the book though ... I wonder how much I'll be able to grasp ...
ー 流光 ー

   花地世
小  見獄の
林  かの中
一  な上は
茶   の 
User avatar
astaroth
 
Posts: 823
Joined: Mon 12.22.2008 5:08 am
Location: Amherst, MA
Native language: Italiano「伊語」

Re: Trying to figure out some lines from 日本人の知らない日本語

Postby phreadom » Sat 08.29.2009 2:55 pm

Ah, that's probably it (もう一回). :) Thanks again!

もういっぱい sounds like it might be a little tricky, but I'll try to keep it in mind. :D

I have a bit of a hard time with the kind of "casual" Japanese that seems to be used in that story. I'm guessing either it will be covered more later in my Genki books, or I'll just have to pick it up from casual conversation. I know some of the people in the lounge tend to chat in more casual Japanese and I tend to just get lost at that point, but at least I'll have practice material. ;)
猿も木から落ちる
User avatar
phreadom
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1762
Joined: Sun 01.29.2006 8:43 pm
Location: Michigan, USA
Native language: U.S. English (米語)
Gender: Male

Re: Trying to figure out some lines from 日本人の知らない日本語

Postby Harisenbon » Sun 08.30.2009 10:14 pm

wow, I'm gone for the weekend, and all these great posts pop up!

Isn't 日本人の知らない日本語 a great book? It's one of the top selling books in Japan right now, and (although painfully short) is a really interesting read. Especially about the etymology and evolution of modern Japan grammar...
Want to learn Japanese the right way? How about for free?
Ippatsu // Japanesetesting.com
User avatar
Harisenbon
 
Posts: 2964
Joined: Tue 06.14.2005 3:24 am
Location: Gifu, Japan
Native language: (poor) English

Re: Trying to figure out some lines from 日本人の知らない日本語

Postby AJBryant » Mon 08.31.2009 9:07 am

Jeez, *another* book I have to get... ;)


Tony
User avatar
AJBryant
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5313
Joined: Sun 10.09.2005 11:29 am
Location: Indiana
Native language: English
Gender: Male


Return to Grammar Questions and Problems

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests