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の particle with quantity words

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の particle with quantity words

Postby みどり » Fri 09.11.2009 4:09 am

I'm a bit confused about using の particle with quantity words (e.g. たくさん, 多く, ほとんど, etc.) when modifying nouns (たくさんの本 / たくさん本 ; 多くの人 / 多く人). Is の necessary in such cases? If yes, why I sometimes find Japanese people saying both たくさん[something] and たくさんの[something], or いっぱい[something] and いっぱいの[something]?

Thanks!  :)
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Re: の particle with quantity words

Postby squarezebra » Fri 09.11.2009 5:33 am

Hi, I'm no expert so don't quote me on this, but i'm pretty sure that both are correct.
In casual speech it's not uncommon for Japanese speakers to make all sorts of different contractions by dropping words and parts of words, in many cases to make different sentences and constructions easier to say.
たくさんの人  and たくさん人 really are the same thing, と思います^^

:D

For written Japanese however, i'd personally always write たくさんの人 though;
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Re: の particle with quantity words

Postby Minarai » Fri 09.11.2009 6:18 am

Greetings,

I have always knew that adjectives like "takusan no" or "ippai no" keep off their particle (の) only when linked with the polite copula です.
Anyway, I've never heard before something like たくさん人/本 and so on...
「たくさん人/本」って聞いたことありませんね。

But maybe I am mistaken and Squarezebraさん said right!

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Re: の particle with quantity words

Postby squarezebra » Fri 09.11.2009 6:35 am

Minaraiさん, I think we are both singing from the same hymn book here :)
It does appear to me that たくさん人 isn't 100% grammatically correct (but i could very definately be wrong), and that's reflected in its usage on google for example. たくさん人 clocks up 143,000 hits, and たくさんの人 2.9Million hits.
Maybe thats just 143,000 lazy writers?
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Re: の particle with quantity words

Postby みどり » Fri 09.11.2009 7:04 am

Thanks for replies.
So can we say that skipping の is more common in colloquial situations, but it's better no to do so if you want to be grammatically correct? :)

I also checked http://jisho.org/sentences/ database and they have both たくさん[smth] and たくさんの[smth]. The latter is more common, though.
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Re: の particle with quantity words

Postby furrykef » Fri 09.11.2009 7:51 am

squarezebra wrote:and that's reflected in its usage on google for example. たくさん人 clocks up 143,000 hits, and たくさんの人 2.9Million hits.
Maybe thats just 143,000 lazy writers?


It should be noted that the number of hits that google gives you is a very rough estimate, and it can sometimes be completely wrong. (For instance, there are rare occasions where a term will only show up on a tiny handful of pages, but Google will tell you there are 100,000 or more hits.)

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Re: の particle with quantity words

Postby inuinu » Fri 09.11.2009 8:39 am

a lot of books → たくさんの本

しかし単独文では「たくさん本」とは言いませんね。

「たくさん本を読んだ」のように
文章の一部としてなら、「の」が無い場合はありますから
それがgoogleで検出されたのではないでしょうか。

「たくさん読んだ」という、ひとまとまりの文の中に、
「本を」という補足を入れているという構成です。


{たくさんの本}を読んだ ← 「本」にかかっている
{たくさん(本を)読んだ} ← 「読んだ」にかかっている
後者の場合は「読むという行為をたくさんした」という意味なので、
一冊のとても厚い本を読破しただけの場合にも使えますが
前者は「たくさんの数の本を読んだ」という意味なので使えません。
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Re: の particle with quantity words

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Fri 09.11.2009 9:50 am

inuinu-san's post is pretty much what I was going to say. There are two basic ways to use a quantity expression in Japanese:

1. Noun + (particle) + quantity expression + predicate
本が三冊あります。
I have three books.
問題はたくさんありますね。
There are a lot of problems.
ペンを五本買った。
I bought five pens.

2. Quantity expression + の + noun + (particle) + predicate
三冊の本があります。
I have three books.
たくさんの問題はありますね。
五本のペンを買った。

What inuinu-san said is that if you see something like たくさん本を読んだ, the structure is like #1 (たくさん is connecting to 読んだ) but the order has been shifted.

Re: the google hits, I think the number only gets seriously skewed if you type something in and it says "Did you mean X?" In that case the hits for the original phrase get mixed in with the hits for the suggestion. So if you type a made-up word or gibberish you may get hundreds of thousands or even millions of hits.
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Re: の particle with quantity words

Postby みどり » Tue 09.15.2009 7:46 am

ありがとう。今よくわかります :-)
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Re: の particle with quantity words

Postby furrykef » Fri 09.18.2009 6:34 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:Re: the google hits, I think the number only gets seriously skewed if you type something in and it says "Did you mean X?" In that case the hits for the original phrase get mixed in with the hits for the suggestion. So if you type a made-up word or gibberish you may get hundreds of thousands or even millions of hits.


Nope. Google for "gakkou no ato" (in romaji and in quotes) and it will say 150,000 hits, with no "Did you mean X?". Scroll down and you'll see it also says only two pages of hits.

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