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Terminology problem : "conjugation"

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Re: Terminology problem : "conjugation"

Postby jcdietz03 » Wed 09.23.2009 1:45 am

How the verb conjugates never has anything to do with the meaning.
It is special class because it conjugates differently than each normal verb class.
If you are a verb, what class you are in determines how you conjugate.
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Re: Terminology problem : "conjugation"

Postby Cillranchello » Wed 09.23.2009 5:52 am

furrykef wrote:
Cillranchello wrote:By the Japanese's own admission, 来る is in a special class of verbs, and needs to be treated as such.


I'm not sure how it's "in a special class" other than how it conjugates differently, and how the verb conjugates has nothing at all to do with the meaning of 来ている.


At the risk of sounding incredulous, you're saying you see no correlation behind 行っている and 来ている being irregular verbs, and their change from focusing on the result, instead of the enduring state?

Lets face it, if there's no correlation, then it's probably the most convenient accident I can think of in Japanese. That's like finding a vending machine that sells my brand of smokes convenient.
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Re: Terminology problem : "conjugation"

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 09.23.2009 8:29 am

Cillranchello wrote:At the risk of sounding incredulous, you're saying you see no correlation behind 行っている and 来ている being irregular verbs, and their change from focusing on the result, instead of the enduring state?


No correlation at all. If this is a special property of these verbs, it's because they're verbs of motion, not because they're irregular. You can put 帰る in there as well. (But those can focus on the enduring state as well depending on the context; there's no clear distinction between result and enduring state, because the ている always means that the result continues to affect things in the present.)

Also, いく isn't really an irregular verb -- it has an irregular form, but it's still usually classified as a k-stem 五段.
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Re: Terminology problem : "conjugation"

Postby furrykef » Wed 09.23.2009 12:31 pm

Cillranchello wrote:At the risk of sounding incredulous, you're saying you see no correlation behind 行っている and 来ている being irregular verbs, and their change from focusing on the result, instead of the enduring state?


Even if there is a correlation, that doesn't mean the correlation is meaningful; it could be coincidental.

Moreover, the Japanese generally do not classify 行く as a "special verb" anyway; it's lumped in with all other godan verbs. It's still an irregular verb, just not irregular enough for them to give it a whole new category. Even "aru" is considered godan, and it's pretty irregular (negative is "nai" instead of "arinai", honorific form is "gozaimasu" instead of "oarishimasu"...)

(EDIT: Silly me didn't realize Yudan already pointed out that 行く isn't considered "special". Ah well.)

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Re: Terminology problem : "conjugation"

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 09.23.2009 12:54 pm

furrykef wrote:Moreover, the Japanese generally do not classify 行く as a "special verb" anyway; it's lumped in with all other godan verbs. It's still an irregular verb, just not irregular enough for them to give it a whole new category. Even "aru" is considered godan, and it's pretty irregular (negative is "nai" instead of "arinai", honorific form is "gozaimasu" instead of "oarishimasu"...)


Couple of points:
- The regular negative of aru would be aranai, which is attested in older Japanese (as "aranu") and still shows up in some stiff language or set phrases today. I think that "nai" isn't strictly considered an irregular conjugation of "aru", it's just that the -i adjective "nai" is used in place of the regular negative of "aru".
- Whether verbs have special honorific or humble words doesn't factor into whether they are considered irregular or not.
- "gozaimasu" is not honorific; it is used only with inanimate objects and is neither honorific nor humble (there is no standard term for this kind of word; JSL uses "neutral politeness")
- o + stem + shimasu is humble, not honorific.

(That's more than a couple, sorry...)
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Re: Terminology problem : "conjugation"

Postby furrykef » Wed 09.23.2009 3:18 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:- The regular negative of aru would be aranai


Gah, I knew that. >.<

I think that "nai" isn't strictly considered an irregular conjugation of "aru", it's just that the -i adjective "nai" is used in place of the regular negative of "aru".


I think "went" isn't strictly an irregular conjugation of "go", it's just a replacement of "goed" with the past tense of the verb "wend". ;)

(OK, nobody holds that point of view, but my point is that such replacement can indeed be reasonably considered an irregular conjugation in the standard modern language, probably even "strictly speaking".)

- Whether verbs have special honorific or humble words doesn't factor into whether they are considered irregular or not.


I don't know about that. It all depends on how you define 'irregular'. But if one would say something like, "Oh, we never say お行きします, we say 参ります", then I would call that an irregularity: the verb has a grammatical exception that most other verbs don't have.

- "gozaimasu" is not honorific; it is used only with inanimate objects and is neither honorific nor humble (there is no standard term for this kind of word; JSL uses "neutral politeness")


Well, it's used with animate objects (as well as inanimate) in the construction "de gozaimasu", I think.

- o + stem + shimasu is humble, not honorific.


Oops. I guess I was kinda lumping "humble" and "honorific" together, but you're right, "humble" and "honorific" are too antonymic. :)

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Re: Terminology problem : "conjugation"

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 09.23.2009 3:27 pm

furrykef wrote:
- Whether verbs have special honorific or humble words doesn't factor into whether they are considered irregular or not.


I don't know about that. It all depends on how you define 'irregular'. But if one would say something like, "Oh, we never say お行きします, we say 参ります", then I would call that an irregularity: the verb has a grammatical exception that most other verbs don't have.


But you'll never see 食べる labeled as irregular in any books or dictionaries that I know of.

- "gozaimasu" is not honorific; it is used only with inanimate objects and is neither honorific nor humble (there is no standard term for this kind of word; JSL uses "neutral politeness")


Well, it's used with animate objects (as well as inanimate) in the construction "de gozaimasu", I think.


Usually "de irasshaimasu" is used instead for animates. The "chris de gozaimasu" construction is probably the name, not the person, that's getting the "de gozaimasu" applied.
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Re: Terminology problem : "conjugation"

Postby furrykef » Wed 09.23.2009 4:32 pm

But you'll never see 食べる labeled as irregular in any books or dictionaries that I know of.


No, but it probably wouldn't be strange for it to say something like "irreg. hon. 召し上がる".

Usually "de irasshaimasu" is used instead for animates. The "chris de gozaimasu" construction is probably the name, not the person, that's getting the "de gozaimasu" applied.


Hmm, OK. Thanks :)
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Re: Terminology problem : "conjugation"

Postby kurisuto » Wed 09.23.2009 7:36 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:Usually "de irasshaimasu" is used instead for animates. The "chris de gozaimasu" construction is probably the name, not the person, that's getting the "de gozaimasu" applied.


That's if you're answering to 名前は?, but it would be different if the question were あなたは誰ですか. I think the restriction in/animate stops being relevant when ございます is used as an auxiliary verb. It also makes me think of the difference between ある and である.

furrykef wrote:it probably wouldn't be strange for it to say something like "irreg. hon. 召し上がる".


I wouldn't be that surprised if it did, but I think 召し上がる, while it is de facto used as the honorific for 食べる, is simply an honorific way to say "eat" (the concept 食べる, 召し上がる, "eat" and "comer" all represent). Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to say whether it's the honorifc for 食べる or 食う, or any other verb with the meaning of "to eat".
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