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Kanji in context sentences

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Re: Kanji in context sentences

Postby kurisuto » Tue 10.06.2009 5:31 pm

Lucas89 wrote:二つ質問があります。[...] 二つ部分


I would've said you forgot the の's. (now, 漢字と語彙のための本 seemed strange to me, but I could totally be wrong).
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Re: Kanji in context sentences

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Tue 10.06.2009 6:17 pm

kurisuto wrote:
Lucas89 wrote:二つ質問があります。[...] 二つ部分


I would've said you forgot the の's.


Yeah, you have the choice between 二つの質問がある or 質問が二つある.
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Re: Kanji in context sentences

Postby Lucas89 » Wed 10.07.2009 2:25 am

kurisuto wrote:I would've said you forgot the の's.

Yudan Taiteki wrote:Yeah, you have the choice between 二つの質問がある or 質問が二つある.


I was surprised to see that, not because I think you are wrong but only because a while ago on another forum I was told this by another native Japanese:
あと、「ひとつ質問」っていうとシリアスな感じがするんで、「ひとつ 質問」と言った方がいいよ。

And have seen it without the の's when I have been looking around the web.
Perhaps this only applies in certain situations?
Or is it something that could be done in more casual conversation? (We never really did use 丁寧語 or anything like that)
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Re: Kanji in context sentences

Postby kurisuto » Wed 10.07.2009 8:38 am

We could discuss about the validity of that in "二つ質問", but "二つ部分" definitely sounds weird. Even in casual speech it would be considered a mistake (probably due to the fact that in the first case it's not really specific, it's just "I have two questions", whereas in the second one, it's very specific, it's "both parts of this sentence").
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Re: Kanji in context sentences

Postby NileCat » Wed 10.07.2009 10:41 am

kurisuto wrote:We could discuss about the validity of that in "二つ質問", but "二つ部分" definitely sounds weird. Even in casual speech it would be considered a mistake (probably due to the fact that in the first case it's not really specific, it's just "I have two questions", whereas in the second one, it's very specific, it's "both parts of this sentence").

I agree.
Concerning "二つ質問があります".
It sounds like "two cups of coffee" vs. "two coffees" to me.
Grammartically speaking, however, it's not the short version of "二つの質問があります".
It's called "倒置"(inverted structure)
質問が二つあります ---->inverted----->二つ質問があります。
It's a proper expression.
e.g.) 本日の会議において、二つ、ご提案をさせていただきたいと思います。(comma is preferable)

Lucas89 wrote:I was surprised to see that, not because I think you are wrong but only because a while ago on another forum I was told this by another native Japanese:
あと、「ひとつの質問」っていうとシリアスな感じがするんで、「ひとつ 質問」と言った方がいいよ。

「ひとつの質問があります」sounds unnatural. It's a kind of...only a matter of generality.
Any question? :wink:
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Re: Kanji in context sentences

Postby kurisuto » Wed 10.07.2009 12:43 pm

NileCat wrote:Grammartically speaking, however, it's not the short version of "二つの質問があります".
It's called "倒置"(inverted structure)
質問が二つあります ---->inverted----->二つ質問があります。
It's a proper expression.


倒置... interesting. Thank you :)

So I assume 一つ聞きたい is the inverted version of 聞きたいことが一つある, with the ことがある part dropped ? I've always found this expression a bit strange.
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Re: Kanji in context sentences

Postby NileCat » Wed 10.07.2009 12:53 pm

kurisuto wrote:So I assume 一つ聞きたい is the inverted version of 聞きたいことが一つある, with the ことがある part dropped ? I've always found this expression a bit strange.

Exactly! It's a perfect answer! :)
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Re: Kanji in context sentences

Postby Lucas89 » Wed 10.07.2009 1:23 pm

Thank you very much NileCat, kurisuto and Yudan Taiteki for your input on this :)
I think I am crystal clear on this now, and I will remember 倒置 for sure :D
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Re: Kanji in context sentences

Postby kurisuto » Wed 10.07.2009 1:40 pm

NileCat wrote:Exactly! It's a perfect answer! :)


Great, another mystery solved ! Only 999 left :wink:
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Re: Kanji in context sentences

Postby NileCat » Wed 10.07.2009 1:56 pm

Oh, I forgot to mention the second one!

Lucas89 wrote:二つ部分はちょっと分かりにくいです。

二つの部分はちょっと分かりにくいです。 is grammatically correct.
二つの部分がちょっと分かりにくいです。 is also correct.

二つ、ちょっと分かりにくいところがあります。
二ヶ所、ちょっと分かりにくい部分があります。 (にかしょ)(「二箇所」is also fine )
二つ、ちょっと分かりにくい箇所があります。  (かしょ)

Just for your information:
"ちょっと分かりにくいところが二ヶ所ほどあるんですが。"
(Note that there are three words easing the nuances, which are ちょっと, ほど, and です
(You may see it very Japanese-Japanese-ish. Those modifiers are used only to express a kind of casual modesty)
(Never mind! It's no big deal!)
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Re: Kanji in context sentences

Postby astaroth » Wed 10.07.2009 7:20 pm

NileCat wrote:It sounds like "two cups of coffee" vs. "two coffees" to me.

This is I think an interesting comment and (to me at least) shed some light on the usage of counters in Asian languages ... I think.
To me "two coffees" and "two cups of coffee" convey the exact same meaning, but I wondering whether to a Japanese those two sentences are actually different because in one there's a counter "cup" and in the other there isn't.

... just wondering during a run ... so much time to let my mind go :wink:
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Re: Kanji in context sentences

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 10.07.2009 7:51 pm

astaroth wrote:
NileCat wrote:It sounds like "two cups of coffee" vs. "two coffees" to me.

This is I think an interesting comment and (to me at least) shed some light on the usage of counters in Asian languages ... I think.
To me "two coffees" and "two cups of coffee" convey the exact same meaning, but I wondering whether to a Japanese those two sentences are actually different because in one there's a counter "cup" and in the other there isn't.


There is a slight difference in English -- "two coffees" means either (1) two types of coffee, or (2) two orders of coffee at a restaurant/coffee house. "two cups of coffee" means two cups of coffee -- it can be either an order, or actual cups.

For instance, I have coffee every morning but I brew it myself rather than buying it at a shop -- I personally would feel wrong saying "I have a coffee every morning" because it sounds like I buy it from Starbucks or the like. "I have coffee" or "I have a cup of coffee" sounds better.
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Re: Kanji in context sentences

Postby NileCat » Wed 10.07.2009 8:30 pm

astaroth wrote:
NileCat wrote:It sounds like "two cups of coffee" vs. "two coffees" to me.

This is I think an interesting comment and (to me at least) shed some light on the usage of counters in Asian languages ... I think.
To me "two coffees" and "two cups of coffee" convey the exact same meaning, but I wondering whether to a Japanese those two sentences are actually different because in one there's a counter "cup" and in the other there isn't.

Maybe it wasn't a good example. Sorry!
I just wanted to say:

1) 「二つの質問がある」and 「二つ質問がある」virtually mean same. Both are correct.(They can convey the same meaning)
2) But, of course, there is a subtle difference in nuances. (At least the length of the sentences are different, right?)
3) One seems perfectly go along with strict grammar and another one seems a little bit tricky to foreigners.

So my comment has nothing to do with the perception of counters in any language.
Sorry for blowing out your candle, astaroth! :)

EDIT:
Yes,I know. My understanding of English counters is terrible. But it's another story. :oops:
EDIT:
Thank you, Chris! :D
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Re: Kanji in context sentences

Postby Lucas89 » Mon 10.12.2009 5:31 pm

Thank you all very much for your input on counters etc. :D

Well, anyway I'm back! :roll: This time with 6, yes, 6 sentences :shock:
For the majority of these I just want to check my understanding, but there is one which I have no idea as to what it's meaning is.
So without further a due, here they are:

季節の変わり目になると、いつも体の調子が悪くなる。
My understanding of this was:
"At the turning point of the seasons, my physical condition always becomes worse"
or
"With the transition of (each) season, my physical condition worsens"
The only way I can think of this in a context where my translation would make sense is if I imagine someone who is dying of a horrible illness, and as time goes on they feel weaker and weaker.

日本語は一通り勉強したつもりだったが、日本に来ると、習った日本語が通じなかったのでショックを受けた。
Here my understanding of 一通り is pretty much non-existent, but my dictionary (小学国語辞典 :oops: )says 「はじめから終わりまでの、大体。ざっと全部。」, so from that here is my translation.
"I had intended to study (most of/the majority of) Japanese, but when I came to Japan, I couldn't communicate the Japanese I learnt and got a shock"

彼はいつも一言多いので、みんなに嫌われています。
Here my uncertainty lies within 一言多い, here is my translation:
"He is disliked by everyone, because he always (gives one word answers?)"

スイスは中立国の立場を守っている。
I'm quite sure that I understand this one but I felt that I needed to check.
"Switzerland protects the standpoint of neutral powers"

12月の忘年会シーズンになると、どの飲み屋もサラリーマンやOLでいっぱいになる。
In this sentence, I am slightly unsure about the grammar in どの飲み屋も.
"In Decembers end of year party season, (No matter what bar [you go to]) it will be filled with Salary men and Office Ladies"

毎日毎日残業で、土曜・日曜は休日出勤。これじゃあ、体がいくつあっても足りないよ。
And now, onto the final one. Here I have been stumped by 体がいくつあっても足りないよ, or more specifically, いくつあっても.
"Because I am doing overtime day after day, I am working on Saturdays and Sundays. これじゃあ、体がいくつあっても足りないよ。"
lol, I'm not even sure how to roughly translate that part :p

Any help would be greatly appreciated :)
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Re: Kanji in context sentences

Postby NileCat » Mon 10.12.2009 6:35 pm

I think you'd better make a newtopic next time. :)

季節の変わり目になると、いつも体の調子が悪くなる。

体の調子が悪い is (can be) used lightly, like catching a cold or something.
So it sounds like someone is just complaining about his health casually to me.

日本語は一通り勉強したつもりだったが、日本に来ると、習った日本語が通じなかったのでショックを受けた。

Meaning-wise, it's like "I thought my Japanese was good enough though...."
= 日本語はざっと全部勉強したと思っていた。日本に来る前は。

彼はいつも一言多いので、みんなに嫌われています。

He always says more than he needs.
= 彼はいつも、余計(よけい)な事を言う

スイスは中立国の立場を守っている。

I think your translation is fine.

12月の忘年会シーズンになると、どの飲み屋もサラリーマンやOLでいっぱいになる。

It's fine too, I think. I usually choose the word "every" for "どの" in this case. Is it different?

毎日毎日残業で、土曜・日曜は休日出勤。これじゃあ、体がいくつあっても足りないよ。

体がいくつあっても足りない is an idiomatic expression which means;
無理だ or やっていけない or 身がもたない or 病気になってしまう or can't go through with it (?)
体が1つ ---> 病気になったら、仕事ができない
体がいくつあっても ---> even if I had some (backup) 体(bodies)...it would not enough...(to cope with it)

I've recently lost confidence in both English and Japanese. So please don't count on me! :D
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