Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

View topic - Hiragana vs Kanji.....

Hiragana vs Kanji.....

Have a Question about some Grammar point? Share it with the world!

Re: Hiragana vs Kanji.....

Postby furrykef » Sun 11.01.2009 12:13 pm

Cillranchello wrote:Never in my life have I seen intelligent people engage in a prick-waving fight.


I don't think it's about prick-waving. It's about trying to get to the bottom of the issue. You can't do that without having a debate of some sort. Not every debate is a "my penis is bigger than yours" argument.

Also, many of us who favor one method really don't fully comprehend why other people favor the other method. I make arguments in favor of RTK not because I'm an RTK fanboy or because I'm a learning-in-context hater, but because I don't understand why the learning-in-context method is supposed to be better and because I think the real advantages of RTK are often misunderstood. Hence my need to debate the issue.

- Kef
Founder of Learning Languages Through Video Games.
Also see my lang-8 journal, where you can help me practice Japanese (and Spanish, and Italian!)
User avatar
furrykef
 
Posts: 1572
Joined: Thu 01.10.2008 9:20 pm
Native language: Eggo (ワッフル語の方言)
Gender: Male

Re: Hiragana vs Kanji.....

Postby Sairana » Sun 11.01.2009 4:36 pm

Cillranchello wrote:In fact, I would argue that the use of both approaches is best. A few Compound Kanji words can be discerned from the Kanji's normal meaning.


fixt

Even if you can find a few hundred examples where the compounds are logical results of the individual kanji... most of the rest of the language doesn't conform so neatly. A few hundred is a drop in the bucket that is the full lexicon of the Japanese language.
Sairana
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed 02.27.2008 11:54 pm
Native language: (US) English
Gender: Female

Re: Hiragana vs Kanji.....

Postby Infidel » Sun 11.01.2009 5:04 pm

Different dictionaries give different values, so it's hard to pin it down exactly, but according to wiki about 90% of kanji are based on sound not pictographs or ideograms.

These phono-semantic or radical-phonetic compounds, sometimes called "semantic-phonetic", "semasio-phonetic", or "phonetic-ideographic" characters, are by far the largest category, making up about 90% of characters. Typically they are made up of two components, one of which suggests the general category of the meaning or semantic context, and the other approximates the pronunciation. (The pronunciation really relates to the original Chinese, and may now only be distantly detectable in the modern Japanese on'yomi of the kanji.


Going off the top of my head NTCs dictionary gave a value of high seventies lower eighties.
なるほど。
さっぱりわからん。
User avatar
Infidel
 
Posts: 3093
Joined: Sun 10.09.2005 1:12 am
Native language: 英語

Re: Hiragana vs Kanji.....

Postby Cillranchello » Sun 11.01.2009 7:13 pm

furrykef wrote:
Cillranchello wrote:Never in my life have I seen intelligent people engage in a prick-waving fight.


I don't think it's about prick-waving. It's about trying to get to the bottom of the issue. You can't do that without having a debate of some sort. Not every debate is a "my penis is bigger than yours" argument.

Also, many of us who favor one method really don't fully comprehend why other people favor the other method. I make arguments in favor of RTK not because I'm an RTK fanboy or because I'm a learning-in-context hater, but because I don't understand why the learning-in-context method is supposed to be better and because I think the real advantages of RTK are often misunderstood. Hence my need to debate the issue.

- Kef

"The Wise Instructor knows it's not what you teach, but how you teach it."
When it comes to teaching there is no "Best" way, it's comes down to how well the student retains the information. There is proof the Heisig method works, and there's proof that the Contextual Learning method works. There's proof that the
"hanging 20 flash cards a week on your door, and making yourself study them anytime you want to leave your room" method works. Just because two teaching methods exist doesn't mean that one is win and the other is fail, it just means there are two teaching methods.

You can't put a "Only this way works" sticker on a teaching method, because everyone puts a variant on an "approved teaching method" to make it work for them. I use actual paper flash cards. Many people say that using an SRS program like Anki is better, but writing the flash cards makes remembering easier for me.

When debating something that ultimately cannot be quantified, the only two courses are the debate goes on endlessly, or an "agree to disagree" resolution is met. Learning isn't something you can quantify, for every person that learned through an "approved" method, there's a crazy person like me that learned some completely other way.

Oh, and Sairana, not fixt, better luck next time.
私は眠いユダヤ人です。
User avatar
Cillranchello
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu 07.07.2005 11:32 pm
Native language: 英語
Gender: Male

Re: Hiragana vs Kanji.....

Postby Infidel » Sun 11.01.2009 7:47 pm

You can't put a "Only this way works" sticker on a teaching method, because everyone puts a variant on an "approved teaching method" to make it work for them. I use actual paper flash cards. Many people say that using an SRS program like Anki is better, but writing the flash cards makes remembering easier for me. ...

When debating something that ultimately cannot be quantified, the only two courses are the debate goes on endlessly, or an "agree to disagree" resolution is met. Learning isn't something you can quantify, for every person that learned through an "approved" method, there's a crazy person like me that learned some completely other way.


Ok, you're just wrong. Firstly, because you're making a straw-man argument. No one is arguing that one way works and another doesn't. People argue the effectiveness of one vs. another.

Secondly, you're wrong because learning is something you can quantify. First you can quantify whether something is known or not known. True/False. Then you can quantify the time it takes to learn such information. Likewise, I can quantify whether someone at any given point on the planet, and I can give the time it takes to move from one point to another based on different methods.

Any method of learning will work eventually if someone sticks with it, just as any method of moving from one point to another on the planet will work eventually if you stick with it. I can pick a random direction, and walk that way, and eventually I'll cross every point on the planet. I may have to circumnavigate the earth hundreds of thousands of times to do so, but it's still something that can be done--eventually. The point here, is that just because a method will work eventually, doesn't make it a good method. We can quantify the effectiveness of learning methods by the amount of time needed to learn something minus the time taken to re-learn any information that was misrepresented. Likewise, we can quantify the effectiveness of any travel method by how long it takes minus how long it would take if another method were taken. It is not simply a matter of does something work eventually.

In short, when efficiency is the subject of debate, it is not a matter of agree to disagree, or everyone continues to argue endlessly. Since we have a topic that is quantifiable, it is a matter of one group being right, another group being wrong, and another group still trying to understand the argument so they can choose the correct side, and then we have the people that don't really pay attention to the arguments made, or misrepresent the arguments, and arrive at conclusions not supported by any other side.
なるほど。
さっぱりわからん。
User avatar
Infidel
 
Posts: 3093
Joined: Sun 10.09.2005 1:12 am
Native language: 英語

Re: Hiragana vs Kanji.....

Postby Sairana » Sun 11.01.2009 8:10 pm

Cillranchello wrote:Oh, and Sairana, not fixt, better luck next time.


What kind of rebuttal is that? Let me try that kind:

It is too fixt, so there!
Sairana
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed 02.27.2008 11:54 pm
Native language: (US) English
Gender: Female

Re: Hiragana vs Kanji.....

Postby Cillranchello » Mon 11.02.2009 12:33 am

I must not be able to speak English, because whenever I try to explain something people get in a fuss...

Your arguements are as much of a strawman as mine. You can quantify all those things, but the fact exists there are still randoms in data. That's why Scientists use a large amount of people or high number of experiments, to obtain the trend. The trend is the concern, randoms in Data are exactly that, randoms in data.

However when you include the Human element, those randoms aren't just data, it means that the method wasn't effective for that set. You can say more people learned via one manner than the other, but it doesn't negate the other method's effectiveness. The last time I checked, more people learning from one method didn't make it the best, it just means it was the best for those people.
This entire argument is about negating one method in favor of the more efficient one. You can quantify all the data, but you can't negate the other method's validity. You're trying to Divide by Zero.

Sairana,
Show me a compound kanji word, and I can guess the meaning. Sometimes you have to do it from radicals, for example 社会 which is "G-d earth meeting" or "society." Sometimes you can do it straight from the Kanji, such as 習慣性薬物 "Learned habit nature medicine thing." therefore "Addictive drug." Show me any word you like, here, I'll start off. 空想英語読本. Can you figure it out from the individual Kanji?

Edit: Oh, and it's a great rebuttal if it's true.
私は眠いユダヤ人です。
User avatar
Cillranchello
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu 07.07.2005 11:32 pm
Native language: 英語
Gender: Male

Re: Hiragana vs Kanji.....

Postby Harisenbon » Mon 11.02.2009 2:17 am

Cillranchello wrote:Show me a compound kanji word, and I can guess the meaning. Sometimes you have to do it from radicals, for example 社会 which is "G-d earth meeting" or "society."


Just to play Devil's advocate, how do you get "society" from God earth meeting?
and what about 会社? Why doesn't "Meeting God Earth" mean the same thing as God Earth Meeting?

While I agree that there are a large number of words that you can guess the meanings of, there are even more where guessing will either not help you, or lead you to think that the word means something different than you assume.
Want to learn Japanese the right way? How about for free?
Ippatsu // Japanesetesting.com
User avatar
Harisenbon
 
Posts: 2964
Joined: Tue 06.14.2005 3:24 am
Location: Gifu, Japan
Native language: (poor) English

Re: Hiragana vs Kanji.....

Postby Sairana » Mon 11.02.2009 3:16 am

So "learned habit" = addiction? Are you sure? What if the word refers to types of medications that are taken habitually for a reason (eg, protein supplements or hormonal replacements)? That changes the meaning quite drastically.

It's pointless on an internet forum to say "give me the meaning for X word". It proves nothing except that perhaps you have mighty Google-fu, and gives you time to come up with something that makes sense.... again, in retrospect. So I won't bother to ask you to define it, and just nabbed the definitions off ALC:

薬物中毒

Encountering the word for the first time, without this list to guide you... what is "中毒"? "middle poison"? "In poison"?
A medicine in poison? A "middle poison" medicine? Hum... Oh! poison in medicine... bad medicine? Medicine that's been poisoned, either intentionally or by mistake?

* chemical addiction
* chemical poisoning
* drug intoxication
* drug overdose
* drug poisoning
* drug toxicity
* medication intoxication
* poisoning by drug
* substance intoxication

Not even on the list! Wait, one is "chemical addiction"? I thought addiction was "learned habit"?

あいつの薬物中毒、ひどい形で表沙汰になっちゃったな。

Is this the first line of an article about someone addicted to drugs, or about someone who had drugs that were mixed wrong at the pharmacy... or someone who simply took too many pills? All would be terrible publicity, so context isn't even throwing me a bone here.

Regarding the word you gave me: sky idea england speech read book: English Language Reader of some type... maybe.. about some sort of scientific theories regarding the earths atmosphere. Or legends about the sky..? Not sure which way to go on that one.

EDIT: I'd like to mention I'm not against using these cues as mnemonics. I'm against using them to try and "decode" Japanese like it's some kind of cipher.
Sairana
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed 02.27.2008 11:54 pm
Native language: (US) English
Gender: Female

Re: Hiragana vs Kanji.....

Postby Cillranchello » Mon 11.02.2009 4:31 am

It is pointless to say "I can do X" over the internet, and just as pointless for me to explain it because it'd just sound like rationalizing, but I digress. I was feeling vindicative and apologize.

The system requires interpretation, but it works for me at least. By my own admission I have a way of connecting things that make sense to me. Though admittedly it serves more as a mnemonic device. I can guess the word and roughly get the meaning.

薬物中毒: Poison inside medicine, so I'm going to say "medical poisoning" or "medicinal poisoning." Any of those meanings you listed, to me, all fall under the same scope. The only actual, unmodified "poison" used medically that I can think of is Botox. (Which is Botulism) By whatever means he was "medicinally poisoned" I imagine are revealed further on. As far as chemical addiction, 習慣性薬物 expresses "nature" or "temperment." or "The Learned Habitual nature of Drugs." If you explained it to me like that, "Oh, you mean he's a junkie?" Where 薬物中毒 doesn't express a nature or temperment, just "Medicine thing in Poison." It makes sense to me atleast.

The answer for 空想英語読本 is "Fantasy English Reader." Sky idea: Fantasy. English Language, and Reading book: Reader(or guidebook). In context, it's a guide English Sci-fi words.
私は眠いユダヤ人です。
User avatar
Cillranchello
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu 07.07.2005 11:32 pm
Native language: 英語
Gender: Male

Re: Hiragana vs Kanji.....

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 11.02.2009 9:40 am

There's a difference between being able to guess a completely unknown word, and use meanings of kanji as a device to remember the meaning of words that you have looked up.

I hope you're not honestly suggesting that "sky idea" is obviously "fantasy" without looking up 空想.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

Re: Hiragana vs Kanji.....

Postby Sairana » Mon 11.02.2009 1:38 pm

Cillranchello wrote:Where 薬物中毒 doesn't express a nature or temperment, just "Medicine thing in Poison." It makes sense to me atleast.


Just wanting to point out that "chemical addiction" is one of the meanings from SpaceALC for 薬物中毒, and the meaning given there for the sentence was "The man's drug addiction came to light in a terrible way." So, even without the "nature" or "temperament" bit.... your own analysis would have read the sentence incorrectly. You would be thinking he was poisoned, and not an addict.
Sairana
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed 02.27.2008 11:54 pm
Native language: (US) English
Gender: Female

Re: Hiragana vs Kanji.....

Postby yukamina » Mon 11.02.2009 5:35 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:There's a difference between being able to guess a completely unknown word, and use meanings of kanji as a device to remember the meaning of words that you have looked up.

Quoted for emphasis.
yukamina
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue 06.05.2007 1:41 am

Re: Hiragana vs Kanji.....

Postby Cillranchello » Mon 11.02.2009 6:10 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:There's a difference between being able to guess a completely unknown word, and use meanings of kanji as a device to remember the meaning of words that you have looked up.

I hope you're not honestly suggesting that "sky idea" is obviously "fantasy" without looking up 空想.


"Sky Idea" being "fantasy" was a logical conclusion to me before I looked it up for the pronunciation. "Having one's head in the clouds" means to be daydreaming or fantasizing. I'm not preaching the method, and I realize all of this sounds like BS and rationalizing, but if the system works for me, well, I'll take my cake and eat it to.

Sairana wrote:
Cillranchello wrote:Where 薬物中毒 doesn't express a nature or temperment, just "Medicine thing in Poison." It makes sense to me atleast.


Just wanting to point out that "chemical addiction" is one of the meanings from SpaceALC for 薬物中毒, and the meaning given there for the sentence was "The man's drug addiction came to light in a terrible way." So, even without the "nature" or "temperament" bit.... your own analysis would have read the sentence incorrectly. You would be thinking he was poisoned, and not an addict.

You're saying addiction isn't a poison?
私は眠いユダヤ人です。
User avatar
Cillranchello
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu 07.07.2005 11:32 pm
Native language: 英語
Gender: Male

Re: Hiragana vs Kanji.....

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 11.02.2009 7:10 pm

Cillranchello wrote:
Yudan Taiteki wrote:There's a difference between being able to guess a completely unknown word, and use meanings of kanji as a device to remember the meaning of words that you have looked up.

I hope you're not honestly suggesting that "sky idea" is obviously "fantasy" without looking up 空想.


"Sky Idea" being "fantasy" was a logical conclusion to me before I looked it up for the pronunciation. "Having one's head in the clouds" means to be daydreaming or fantasizing. I'm not preaching the method, and I realize all of this sounds like BS and rationalizing, but if the system works for me, well, I'll take my cake and eat it to.


The bottom line is that it's impossible. You cannot accurately guess the meaning of most words from the meaning of the kanji without looking them up. Kanji have too many meanings, and the connection between the word and the meaning is often too vague, for this to be useful as a reading strategy. This isn't a "method".

You're saying addiction isn't a poison?


Poison and addiction are different things.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

PreviousNext

Return to Grammar Questions and Problems

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests