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What's the best way to say...

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Re: What's the best way to say...

Postby lonelytraveler8 » Wed 10.28.2009 12:51 am

Well, based on his personality (which I know pretty well), and the meaning of the word...I would definitely draw a sense of sarcasm from it.
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Re: What's the best way to say...

Postby furrykef » Wed 10.28.2009 12:05 pm

Hmm... maybe he uses 'itadaku' here to humorously suggest that whoever left the safe there for him to rob did it as a favor to him? Kind of like him saying, "Hey, thanks for leaving this safe here, guys, it was very helpful"?
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Re: What's the best way to say...

Postby Hyperworm » Wed 10.28.2009 12:32 pm

When nabbing something from someone you could say 「いただきっ!」. In other situations, you might see 「もらった!」 to mean "I've got you now!"/"I've taken (this match) now!". I don't think either use implies favours have been done; it just indicates taking. Similarly いただいた here.

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[6] 獲得して自分のものとする。
 ・ この試合はもらった(=勝ツ)

itadaki
1 勝負事などで、勝ちが自分の手に入ることが確かであること。「この試合は―だ」

itadaku
6 苦労もなく、手に入れる。「今度の試合は―・いたも同然だ」

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Re: What's the best way to say...

Postby shin1ro » Sat 10.31.2009 9:07 am

furrykef wrote:Is the usage of いただく here supposed to be ironic/sarcastic, or is there something I'm missing here?


Even in this "robbery" situation, いただく is used very often (in stories, manga, plays...). So, I (native Japanese speaker) didn't realize it's honorific... :D Of course, もらう is good as well. To me, both sounds haughty in the same level probably because robbery itself is already haughty.

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Re: What's the best way to say...

Postby lonelytraveler8 » Sat 10.31.2009 9:29 pm

Ok, so what's the best way to say "I began doing [something]" or "I began going [somewhere]"? I was doing some exercises in my textbook today and one section allowed you to pretty much make up your own sentences. I came up with the following:

友達は先月大学に勉強しに行きのをはじめたと言っていました。

The intended meaning: My friend said that he began going to school in order to study last month.

Do I have the right idea here or am I missing some piece of grammar that I don't know about? Thanks in advance. :)
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Re: What's the best way to say...

Postby NileCat » Sat 10.31.2009 9:39 pm

Almost. :D

友達は先月大学に勉強しに行きはじめたと言っていました。
or
友達は先月大学に勉強しに行きだしたと言っていました。
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Re: What's the best way to say...

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sat 10.31.2009 10:29 pm

shin1ro wrote:
furrykef wrote:Is the usage of いただく here supposed to be ironic/sarcastic, or is there something I'm missing here?


Even in this "robbery" situation, いただく is used very often (in stories, manga, plays...). So, I (native Japanese speaker) didn't realize it's honorific... :D


Well, it's only honorific in cases like これを書いていただけないでしょうか or the like...
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Re: What's the best way to say...

Postby lonelytraveler8 » Sun 11.01.2009 2:38 am

NileCat wrote:Almost. :D

友達は先月大学に勉強しに行きはじめたと言っていました。
or
友達は先月大学に勉強しに行きだしたと言っていました。


Really? My book says that adding の to the end of a verb stem denotes "doing" it. So スポーツをしの would be "playing sports." In your first example, you cut out the のを, and that's the only thing different. I sort of understand that. But in the second example, you cut out はじめる completely and replace it with する. I don't really get the second one very well.

Thanks for the help so far, though.
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Re: What's the best way to say...

Postby NileCat » Sun 11.01.2009 3:03 am

本を読む
(start reading)
--->本を読みはじめる
--->本を読み出す

(--->本を読むのをはじめる)
(--->本を読むことをはじめる)

lonelytraveler8 wrote:My book says that adding の to the end of a verb stem denotes "doing" it. So スポーツをしの would be "playing sports."

Did you pay money for the book??
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Re: What's the best way to say...

Postby magamo » Sun 11.01.2009 4:13 am

lonelytraveler8 wrote:Ok, so what's the best way to say "I began doing [something]" or "I began going [somewhere]"? I was doing some exercises in my textbook today and one section allowed you to pretty much make up your own sentences. I came up with the following:

友達は先月大学に勉強しに行きのをはじめたと言っていました。

The intended meaning: My friend said that he began going to school in order to study last month.

Do I have the right idea here or am I missing some piece of grammar that I don't know about? Thanks in advance. :)

I guess what you were trying to say was:

友達は先月大学に勉強しに行くのをはじめたと言っていました。(行き -> 行く)

This does make sense and is technically grammatical. But if you want to sound more natural, you might want to replace 行くのをはじめた with 行きはじめた because that's what native speakers would normally say when they mean 行くのをはじめる or 行くことをはじめる. Actually 行くことをはじめる can sound like a translation from a sentence in another language. But then again, you're translating an English sentence, and your sentence makes perfect sense. Also, teachers would say 行"き"のをはじめました is wrong, but native speakers would understand you without any problem if you said it that way.

Reading NileCat's post and your response, I thought he might be confusing a gerund and the progressive form of a verb in English; "playing"s in "We started playing tennis" and "We were playing tennis" are grammatically different. I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, NileCat.

Anyway, if I understand you correctly, I think what you're trying to do is something like connecting two verbs, e.g., like + play -> like playing (as in "I like playing basketball"), start + walk -> start walking, and your own sentence (begin + go -> begin going). If you want to do this in Japanese, you do like this:

like + play -> like playing = 好き + 遊ぶ -> 遊ぶのが好き,
start + walk -> start walking = はじめる + 歩く -> 歩くのをはじめる (-> 歩きはじめる because this sounds better),
begin + go -> begin going = はじめる + いく -> 行くのをはじめる (-> 行きはじめる).

In general, if you want to combine verb1 + verb2 as in verb1 verb2-ing, you form a sentence in Japanese like this:

verb2 + の + (appropriate particle depending on verb1, often を or が) + verb1.

If you want to make a sentence in the past/future/whatever tense, you apply the usual tense flip to verb1.

It's kind of difficult for beginners to pick the appropriate particle properly, but you'll eventually learn it. If explanations in your textbook is unsatisfactory, which is most likely the case, try read another textbook or some online sources as well. Reading/listening to native material also helps. If all fail, you can always post a question here, I think.

Also, this is an extremely dumbed down version of an in-a-nutshell explanation, so don't expect this always works. After you get the basics down, you may be having trouble understanding the difference between はじめる and 出す as in 行きはじめる vs. 行き出す. If you get confused, I'm pretty sure there are great articles and forum posts about this on the internet. Your textbook might contain a nice explanation.

Sorry if I'm totally missing the point.
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Re: What's the best way to say...

Postby NileCat » Sun 11.01.2009 4:35 am

It seems to me that you are now studying English -ing form in Japanese.
It's not that easy. Because English -ing is a multi-functional form.

1) I run. ---> I'm running. (present progressive)
私は走る ---> 私は走っている。

2) Running is good for health.(gerund)
走ることは健康に良い。
走るのは健康に良い。(<--It's probably that your book says about.)

3) I started runnning. 
私は走り出した。
私は走りはじめた。

Your question in the first place was about "I began doing" or "I began going".
It has nothing to do with gerand nor present progressive in Japanese.
"begin -ing" or "start -ing" are like phrasal verbs in Japanese. Does it make sense to you?

EDIT:
magamo wrote:Reading NileCat's post and your response, I thought he might be confusing a gerund and the progressive form of a verb in English; "playing"s in "We started playing tennis" and "We were playing tennis" are grammatically different.

Excuse me? :evil:

EDIT2:
start + walk -> start walking = はじめる + 歩く -> 歩くのをはじめる (-> 歩きはじめる because this sounds better),
It doesn't seem logical to me. "歩くのをはじめる" and "歩きはじめる" are totally different in grammar. You can't explain the function of the Japanese subsidiary verbs unless you put the English gerand aside for a while, I think. :wink:
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Re: What's the best way to say...

Postby lonelytraveler8 » Sun 11.01.2009 5:20 am

I lied! (Just kidding...I misread my book when going back to it). I didn't mean a verb stem, I meant a short form. So my sentence should have been:

友達は先月大学に勉強しに行のをはじめたと言っていました。

However, I admit that the book only explains this in the context of liking/disliking something or being good/bad at something:

勉強するのが好きです。
勉強するのが下手です。

I don't know what a gerund is. This is the first time I've heard the word. I can't claim to completely understand the difference between taking a short form and adding の or the ている form.

Let me ask this about your examples, NileCat:

--->本を読みはじめる (Using a verb stem here, you just put the verb you want right after. Is this meant to be a correct example or incorrect? I couldn't really tell based on what you wrote)
--->本を読むのをはじめる (This appears to be what my book says. Is this also correct? What is the best and most natural form of all of these?)

Also, since the こと+particle thing was mentioned, I have a question about it. I was skimming ahead in my book today and read something that sounds similar to this. It explains a ~ことがある form. The example sentence is 「たけしさんは授業を休んだことがありません。」 Now, can this be applied somewhat generally using particles other than が and verbs other than ある?
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Re: What's the best way to say...

Postby magamo » Sun 11.01.2009 5:59 am

NileCat wrote:
magamo wrote:Reading NileCat's post and your response, I thought he might be confusing a gerund and the progressive form of a verb in English; "playing"s in "We started playing tennis" and "We were playing tennis" are grammatically different.

Excuse me? :evil:


Oh, sorry. I thought it was apparent that lonelytraveler8 was applying the rules for のが好きです/のが下手です in his textbook to はじめる to generalize the idea, hence the 行き -> 行く correction and 遊ぶのが好き example in my previous post. I thought that if you had known what he was doing, you wouldn't have written that way.

NileCat wrote:
magamo wrote:start + walk -> start walking = はじめる + 歩く -> 歩くのをはじめる (-> 歩きはじめる because this sounds better),
It doesn't seem logical to me. "歩くのをはじめる" and "歩きはじめる" are totally different in grammar. You can't explain the function of the Japanese subsidiary verbs unless you put the English gerand aside for a while, I think. :wink:

No, it's not a grammatical explanation. It's just one of practical methods to get a native-like sentence. It was obvious that lonelytraveler8 isn't a grammar person, so I stepped aside the muddle of unpractical grammar so he can get to the right sentences without relying on lengthy explanation filled with jargon.

Actually if I understand what he was trying to do correctly, his way of getting 行くのをはじめる is pretty useful, don't you think?
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Re: What's the best way to say...

Postby NileCat » Sun 11.01.2009 6:18 am

Good question, lonlytraveler8.

--->本を読みはじめる (Using a verb stem here, you just put the verb you want right after. Is this meant to be a correct example or incorrect? I couldn't really tell based on what you wrote)
--->本を読むのをはじめる (This appears to be what my book says. Is this also correct? What is the best and most natural form of all of these?)

Those two sentences are both correct and can convey the same meaning.
However, the grammer rules are different.

本を読みはじめる。
There are two verbs, which are "to read"(読む)and "to start"(はじめる), ok?
When you say it in English, you also use two verbs. And -ing is the key to connect them.
In Japanese the renyou-kei(連用形)of the verb + to start(はじめる)works the same as you use -ing form in English. 読みはじめる/走りはじめる/歌いはじめる/行きはじめる

On the other hand, 本を読むのをはじめる。
Here, "本を読む" is used (with のを) as if it's a noun. I start "the act that I read the book". Do you know what I mean? So, as magamo said, although it makes sense, it sounds very artificial. Besides, sometimes it sounds weird.

However, there are a bunch of exceptions in the practical usage. For instance, "勉強するのをはじめる" is acceptable because it deals with relatively logical issue ;studying. But "歌うのをはじめる" sounds too strange because it refers to singing! (casual affair)

That's why I recommended to get familiar with the expression which always works and sounds natural.
学校に行きはじめる/勉強しはじめる/笑いはじめる...Once you get accustomed to the usage, it's very easy and very convenient!

Also, since the こと+particle thing was mentioned, I have a question about it. I was skimming ahead in my book today and read something that sounds similar to this. It explains a ~ことがある form. The example sentence is 「たけしさんは授業を休んだことがありません。」 Now, can this be applied somewhat generally using particles other than が and verbs other than ある?

~ことがある is a good and handy expression. And you can apply it like:
たけしさんが授業を休んだことはおどろきです。(it was surprising)
たけしさんが授業を休んだことも2回あります。(he missed the class twice as well)
たけしさんが授業を休んだことが問題になりました。(it became a big problem)

And magamo, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you're wrong. But first things first, isn't it? And if you read through this thread from the beginning, you would find out that lonelytraveler8 is studying along the proper grammar with his teacher, seriously.

EDIT:
magamo wrote:Oh, sorry. I thought it was apparent that lonelytraveler8 was applying the rules for のが好きです/のが下手です in his textbook to はじめる to generalize the idea, hence the 行き -> 行く correction and 遊ぶのが好き example in my previous post. I thought that if you had known what he was doing, you wouldn't have written that way.

Why are you so sure about your assumption?
I avoided to "generalize the idea". Because there is a trap. Are you thinking in Japanese or English? In Japanese, the idea seems illogical. That's what I wanted to convey.
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Re: What's the best way to say...

Postby magamo » Sun 11.01.2009 6:52 am

NileCat wrote:And magamo, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you're wrong. But first things first, isn't it? And if you read through this thread from the beginning, you would find out that lonelytraveler8 is studying along the proper grammar with his teacher, seriously.

I know where you're coming from, but I'm of the opinion that grammar should be taught after you get the hang of the language... Anyway my definition of "grammar person" is a person who knows jargon like "dangling modifier," "split infinitive," "subjunctive mood," etc. They're pretty much useless when it comes to actually speaking a language though. And I thought you might be going to give a real grammar explanation because you sounded like you knew a lot (and I know you do!).

NileCat wrote:Why are you so sure about your assumption?
I avoided to "generalize the idea". Because there is a trap. Are you thinking in Japanese or English? In Japanese, the idea seems illogical. That's what I wanted to convey.

Sorry if I sounded rude. I didn't mean it. As for the language I use when thinking, my answer is "I don't know." I often forget which language I'm speaking, though my English is obviously poorer. And yeah, it may not be a grammatically sound idea, but it's not that bad if you get my drift.

One more thing: Do you mean たけしさん"も"授業を休んだこと"が"2回あります。for the translation (he missed the class twice as well)? If you switch around も and が, you get a slightly different meaning. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about though.

Edit: fixed tons of errors... me thinks me needz sum sleep.
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