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question concerning 「死ぬ」

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question concerning 「死ぬ」

Postby ss » Wed 10.28.2009 12:00 pm

皆さん、こんにちは。
質問があります。 もし間違っていたら正してください。

I seem to recall hearing this verb "to die" as 「死ぬる」 and the 標準語 is 「死ぬ」, but I'm not sure which one is the common reading.

According to the conjugation chart here, 死なない is the negative form of 「死ぬ」.

Polite masu form is 死にます
Polite negative form is 死にません

My questions :
1) 死にません = 死なない (??) which means "won't die" / "don't die" (??)
2) 死なないでください Please don't die (Does saying like this even exist?)
3) 死ない can be function like volitional form 死のう
4) 死んだ = 死にました (died)

Sorry if this question seemed inauspicious, thanks for your input.

そのインタープリテイションは正しいのですか。 よろしくお願いします。
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Re: question concerning 「死ぬ」

Postby furrykef » Wed 10.28.2009 12:23 pm

死ねる means "can die" or "able to die" -- perhaps more literally "capable of dying" -- since it's the potential form of 死ぬ. Compare 話せる "can speak", from 話す. I'm not sure when 死ねる actually would be used, though... I don't think it would be used to say "He can die at any moment", for example. (There are uses of 死ねる on Google, but I'm not advanced enough to understand them.) But, for instance, you could negate it and say 死ねない, "I am incapable of dying", for example.

死なない is indeed the negative of 死ぬ. All godan verbs are formed in the negative by changing the 'u' in the plain form into an 'a' and adding 'nai', so 'shinu' becomes 'shinanai'. (There is one exception: if the last syllable is 'u' and has no preceding consonant, such as the verb 'iu', to speak, then the 'u' becomes 'wa' instead of 'a', so the negative of 'iu' is 'iwanai' rather than 'ianai'.)

Google shows plenty of hits for 死なないでください, so although I have no idea how common the saying is, it's definitely been used.

3) 死ない can be function like volitional form 死のう


I'm not familiar with this construction, so I can't comment on it... I know everything else you said is definitely right, though.

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Re: question concerning 「死ぬ」

Postby NileCat » Wed 10.28.2009 12:51 pm

SS wrote:3) 死ない can be function like volitional form 死のう

It is incorrect. (However, since this word has a wide variety in many dialects, I can't rule out the possibility that someone use it in a certain area. But I've never heard of it.)

死ぬ (ナ行五段活用)

未然形 死な(-ない)  死の(-う)
連用形 死に(-ます)  死ん(-で)
終止形 死ぬ
連体形 死ぬ(-とき)
仮定形 死ね(-ば)
命令形 死ね
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Re: question concerning 「死ぬ」

Postby richvh » Wed 10.28.2009 2:36 pm

死ぬる is the classical 連体形 of the na-hen verb 死ぬ. It isn't used in modern Japanese, except to give a bit of classical flavor to speech (so mostly in jidai-geki, I assume.)
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Re: question concerning 「死ぬ」

Postby ss » Thu 10.29.2009 9:21 am

Ferrykef さん、Nilecatさん、Uncle Rich、thank you very much for the clarification.

I googled and actually found articles with this form 「死ない」, I could have read it wrongly, for example in this sentence 「生命保険はどうでしょうか。それは原則死ないと、もらえません。生前にもらえるものは、保険料がべらぼうに高いです。。。。。。」
(Perhaps it's read as 原則死 /ない not 原則 / 死ない ?)

And, from this website, there's one example sentence 《用例》「駄目なら、一緒に死ない」(駄目なら、一緒に死のう)。
I was curious about this 死ない being used there, and thought it meant "Since we are so useless or hopeless, let's go and die" Image, but it turned out to be "Unless we have other alternative/way, we shall/will die....." (?)

I have now understood that there is no such form 「死ない」, to say "I won't die!", it should be conjugated to ない and not い、hence 「私はしなない(ぞ)!」
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Re: question concerning 「死ぬ」

Postby phreadom » Thu 10.29.2009 10:18 am

As a tiny aside, I just heard the 死なない form used today in a J-dorama. :) It's always nice to see what you're learning about being used. :D

It was a robot in Zettai Kareshi saying "僕は死なないロボット". That he was a robot that wouldn't die.
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Re: question concerning 「死ぬ」

Postby NileCat » Thu 10.29.2009 1:46 pm

SS wrote:I googled and actually found articles with this form 「死ない」, I could have read it wrongly, for example in this sentence 「生命保険はどうでしょうか。それは原則死ないと、もらえません。生前にもらえるものは、保険料がべらぼうに高いです。。。。。。」
(Perhaps it's read as 原則死 /ない not 原則 / 死ない ?)

I was curious and googled it. It is a typo. And I suppose it might not sound too strange in Chugoku region. Because their traditional dialect is similar to that. The several articles I found have used the copy of the same original text that contains the typo.

And, from this website, there's one example sentence 《用例》「駄目なら、一緒に死ない」(駄目なら、一緒に死のう)。
I was curious about this 死ない being used there, and thought it meant "Since we are so useless or hopeless, let's go and die" , but it turned out to be "Unless we have other alternative/way, we shall/will die....." (?)

The website you found is explaining a specific dialect of Tottori (鳥取弁).The site explains that some classic grammar is still surviving in the region even today. It's Greek to us who use standard Japanese. And I suppose, nowadays, only elderly people speak strong dialects even in those areas. In general, young people know the differences.
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Re: question concerning 「死ぬ」

Postby ss » Thu 10.29.2009 9:26 pm

Nilecatさん、
Thank you once again for your time and reply, highly appreciated.
(I just wanted to confirm 死ない was not a common usage)

Justin,
Have you finished reviewing chapter 5,6,7? (Study time!) :twisted:
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Re: question concerning 「死ぬ」

Postby phreadom » Fri 10.30.2009 1:08 am

SS wrote:Justin,
Have you finished reviewing chapter 5,6,7? (Study time!) :twisted:


あの。。。 えと。。。  :oops:
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