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〜とは/〜とういう/っていう

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〜とは/〜とういう/っていう

Postby DarumaBlue » Wed 10.28.2009 12:48 pm

I'm having a bit of trouble with these Japanese grammar odds and ends.

During first and second year Japanese I heard these a lot (おういう is very distinctive sound) and sort of figured they meant something like "means, as defined by" etc.

I first learned 〜とういう from Genki II, and later from an instructor's worksheet. The way I learned it was AとういうB, where B defines A, especially so if A is a proper noun. For example, iPodとういうMP3 player.

っていう I've learned as a more colloquial version of 〜とういう.

And とは, well, I have no idea where this fits in.

Now, any of these observations can be totally wrong. And probably are. The problem is, whenever I try to use とういう it never turns out well. I'll use it in class to say さとういう語尾は〜 or "The gobi, "sa" is..." for example, but I always get strange looks. Or こいずみとういう政治家が。。。 but again, there is always that half-second blank look that indicates to me that I'm not using this correctly.

Any tips or advice on using grammar that let you identify or clarify whatever it is you're talking about?
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Re: 〜とは/〜とういう/っていう

Postby NileCat » Wed 10.28.2009 1:17 pm

It is "という" not "とういう" or "おういう".

と-いう  (or と-謂う)( or と-云う)((or と-言う))(usually written in hiragana)

「さ」 という 語尾は ~
「こいずみ」 という 政治家が ~


「こう言う」 「そう言う」 「ああ言う」
彼はこう言いました。私はそう言いました。彼女はああ言っています。

「そういう」
そういうこともある。(=そのようなこともある)(=そんなこともある)

EDIT:
We pronounce it "to-iu" or "to-yuu". Either will do.
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Re: 〜とは/〜とういう/っていう

Postby DarumaBlue » Wed 10.28.2009 2:49 pm

Oops, I wrote おういう to describe the sound I heard back when I first started learning Japanese, but you're correct, it is not とういう. My mistake.

I'm getting hints about the use from your examples, but do you think you could elaborate? Especially on the last part where you compare そういう,そのような,and そんな

I never know when to use those, and I'm inclined to believe the nuances can only be learned by reading and absorbing what kinds of sentences they appear in.
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Re: 〜とは/〜とういう/っていう

Postby NileCat » Wed 10.28.2009 3:21 pm

Here are some example sentences for you.

iPod という MP3プレーヤーを買った。
iPhone という携帯電話(けいたいでんわ)はおもしろい。

「おもしろい」という言葉は、「興味深い(きょうみぶかい)」という意味だ。
「興味深い」という言葉は、英語の「interesting」と近い言葉だ。

そういうことは、勉強しなければわかりません。
あなたが言ったのは、そういうことですね。


こども: 「友達とけんかをしました」
あなた: 「そういうことをしては、いけません」 (そんなことをしては、いけません)

こども: 「友達をけりました」
あなた: 「そんなことをしては、いけません」 (そういうことをしては、いけません)

"そういうこと" and "そんなこと" are almost same. The subtle difference is like... something like "that" and "it".(maybe :) )
"そのようなこと" sounds kind of formal or written style.
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Re: 〜とは/〜とういう/っていう

Postby Kodama_30 » Wed 10.28.2009 6:48 pm

I'm not the greatest at Japanese, so take this with a pinch of salt but my understanding is that the 「と」 is used to encapsulate what it proceeds(relative to the verb in the clause). Hence why you see it being used for direct quotes、 interpreted quotes and introductions.

田中と申します - My name is Tanaka (as for myself, they say Tanaka)
先生から「今日は授業じゃない」と聞きます - Heard from the Teacher: 'There's no lesson today'.


However, a common way that this piece of grammar is used is to act like a connective to two clauses.
AというのはB - in this usage the という is abstract and nothing is really being said, it's just being used as a convienient way to define one thing (A), and then immediately talk about it (B). At least thats my understanding of it.

Tae Kim has a very good in-depth explaination of this topic on his site:
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/define.html
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Re: 〜とは/〜とういう/っていう

Postby Astral Abraxas » Fri 10.30.2009 11:27 pm

とは is used when you're about to define something. For example: スタックとは、最初に入るデータが最後に出られるデータ
構造なんです。 = A stack is a data structure where the data that enters first is the data that can exit last.

When a noun comes after a verb, the verb and all preceding it acts like an adjective to that noun.
Xと言うY... = Y which is the thing called X...

Really とは is a simple way of doing Xということは...です = the thing which is called X is...
元気となる instead of 元気になる is sometimes used in writing. It can be thought of as
元気と言うことになる。 To become the thing which is called healthy/energetic.

って is a casual form of the particle と.

先生から「今日は授業じゃない」と聞きます


先生は「今日は授業がない」とおっしゃいました。 = The teacher said there is no class today.

おっしゃる is the honorific form(尊敬語) of 言う and has an irregular conjugation.

EDIT:

Yeah, 言う is often pronounced as ゆう in speech.

AというのはB = to say A is B

blahblahblahというのは正しい.

to say "blahblahblah" is correct.


EDIT2:

I despise the genki series for 1 main reason. There are several instances where it's misleading. There are other reasons why I hate it but they are ones I could shrug off because you can't expect a textbook to be perfect. I just think the worst thing a textbook can do is mislead you.

I swear to the great gardener in the sky, someday... I'll master Japanese and through several improvements, perfect my own textbook lol.
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Re: 〜とは/〜とういう/っていう

Postby Cillranchello » Sun 11.01.2009 10:40 am

When using というto describe something, it's pretty simple.

これはiPodというMP3プレーヤーです。
This is an MP3 player called iPod.

When you're using という to talk about another sentence, it helps to think of it sort of like "That."

For example, 彼は中国人だというのが(私は)信じられなかったのです。
He is Chinese -> (I) could not believe.
I could not believe he is Chinese.

The normal sentence order is reversed compared to English(Like everything else in Japanese) because you're stating something, and then talking about that statement.

って follows the same rules, as Toiu, but it isn't necessary to nominalize という with のは/のが etc.

I'm not completely sure when it comes to clauses ending in だ because だって can mean "But" or "Even so,"
I think you could just use て which is commonly used, but don't weigh salt on my words.
私は眠いユダヤ人です。
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Re: 〜とは/〜とういう/っていう

Postby Astral Abraxas » Tue 11.10.2009 11:24 am

Cillranchello, here is a reference for って at the end of a sentence.

Image
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