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し終った

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し終った

Postby squarezebra » Mon 11.02.2009 5:43 pm

Hey guys, hows tricks? :D
I've come to bug you again :P
Is it possible for me to write, 「国子さんは五時にピアノの練習をし始めて八時にし終った」, or would I have to write 「国子さんは五時にピアノの練習をし始めて八時にピアノの練習をし終った」?
Alternatively would it even be 「国子さんは五時にピアノの練習をし始めて八時にし終わった」?

The second sounds a little long winded to me, and the first seems like it might need an intransitve verb if I say it like that, but i'm not sure; I'd hazard my guess at the third option for those reasons.

What do you think?
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Re: し終った

Postby magamo » Mon 11.02.2009 7:19 pm

The three sentences all make sense, and native speakers would understand what you're trying to say by those sentences.

As for 終わる vs. 終る, I think 終わる is more popular than 終る, though I wouldn't say the latter is wrong. If you write おわる as 終る, you may come out sounding like an old Japanese guy who follows older kanjification rules like 行なう for 行う.

Anyway if I were you, I'd use simpler sentence structures in most situations, e.g.,

国子さんは五時から八時までピアノを練習しました。

I might also say:

国子さんは五時からピアノの練習を始めて、八時に終えました。

終える has a connotation that the person intentionally/deliberately stops or finishes doing something. 終わる can also carry the nuance to a lesser extent, but usually it sounds like the speaker is describing a fact from the third person perspective. Also, you used 五時に when 五時から works fine, so the listener might think the information "5 o'clock" has some importance, e.g., an alibi proving she wasn't at the scene of the crime. This also adds an objective-view-ish nuance to your sentence.

練習し始める, 練習をし始める, and 練習を始める have slightly difference nuances, but I don't know if this kind of thing should be taught by explanations. You might want to pay attention to context when native speakers use these phrases so you can grasp the difference. It doesn't seem learning rules and definitions helps a lot to produce natural sentences on the fly.

Anyway, if what you want to do is make yourself understood by your own sentence relying on grammar, you already made it.
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Re: し終った

Postby squarezebra » Tue 11.03.2009 4:06 am

Thanks Magamo. You've cleared that up :D
In truth, they are not really sentences i'd use either in conversation; like you said, they can definately be expressed in much simpler ways. However, i'm working through some textbook exercises as the moment (you know the type where it gives you an example sentence and tells you to do the same others) and that was what I was landed with.
On 終わるvs 終る、this may be a little confusing because i was actually contrasting the use of 終る(おわるintransitive) vs 終う(しまう-transitive)as i felt that 「国子さんは五時にピアノの練習をし始めて八時にし終った」might need an instransitive because you've kinda removed the direct object, and are almost saying 八時には. I don't know if I make any sense here hahah. Sorry.

No but thats great, thanks. What I needed to know was whether my first example was grammatically correct, and you clarified that :D
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Re: し終った

Postby magamo » Tue 11.03.2009 4:41 am

Ah, so you wanted to know if transitive verbs can share the same object in a sentence even when they're separated by additional information like 八時に, right? Then yes, you can.

By the way, おわる is usually kanjified as 終わる, not 終る. As I said in the previous post, the latter isn't wrong. But it looks old. Also, しまう is usually kanjified as 仕舞う. Certainly you can write it as 終う too, but as far as I know, it's not as common.

And one more thing. The use of 仕舞う as in 学校を仕舞ってから出かける sounds old to me, and I don't know if "ししまう" is ok. That's not what I'd normally say.
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