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Re: ~て form newbie question

Postby furrykef » Sat 11.28.2009 9:48 pm

Sairana wrote:The rewritten version, "The man who is running," also is not using the progressive aspect of ~ing. It's part of the subject complement.


I don't see how this "running" is different from the one in "The man is running", which I would call progressive (since, together with "is", it forms the present progressive tense). The only difference is that it's in a relative clause rather than the main clause. The phrase "is running" doesn't change either syntax or meaning, so why should its "running" be considered different?

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Re: ~て form newbie question

Postby Sairana » Sun 11.29.2009 4:34 am

magamo wrote:I'm guessing you're confused because "running" is used as an intransitive verb in his example.


I'm not at all confused.

furrykef wrote:I don't see how this "running" is different from the one in "The man is running", which I would call progressive (since, together with "is", it forms the present progressive tense). The only difference is that it's in a relative clause rather than the main clause.


"The man who is running," is an incomplete sentence. "The man is running," is a complete sentence.

The difference is in the first, there is -no verb-, no action being performed. The clause, "who is running" exists only to modify 'the man', not to describe the act of running. To complete the sentence, you must still supply the verb and a predicate as necessary. IE, "The man who is running drinks water often."

Being "progressive" requires it to be acting as the verb in the sentence. It isn't. It's the present participle as part of the subject complement. When directly before the noun, it is the participle acting as the adjective. In either case, it is not the present progressive, nor is it the intransitive version of "running".
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Re: ~て form newbie question

Postby furrykef » Sun 11.29.2009 5:17 am

Sairana wrote:Being "progressive" requires it to be acting as the verb in the sentence. It isn't.


I've never heard of any rule that the progressive aspect can only be applied to the main verb in the sentence, and such a rule would seem to be inconsistent. I don't see how a predicate in a relative clause is different from any other predicate. In fact, I daresay you won't find any predicates that are impossible, or that change meaning, depending on whether or not it's used in a relative clause. To me, a predicate is a predicate. You're introducing a special case where none is necessary.

Or to phrase it using Japanese grammar, it's like saying that ている is somehow different between その人が走っている and その走っている人. I see no difference in either language.

I'll also point out that you can't deny that the perfect aspect is possible in a relative clause: "The man who had run." Why not the progressive aspect?

It's the present participle as part of the subject complement.


I fail to see how this is distinct. If I said "A man who eats bananas", you wouldn't say that either "eats" or "bananas" is any different than in "A man eats bananas", right?

Anyway, if "running" is part of the subject complement in "The man who is running", what makes it not part of the subject complement in "The man is running"? What makes it any different? (And, as I've indicated above, I don't think "it's not in a relative clause" counts as "any different".)

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Re: ~て form newbie question

Postby magamo » Sun 11.29.2009 11:47 am

Sairana wrote:I'm not at all confused.

I'm afraid you are.

The two "is"s in "The man who is running should be able to walk because he is doing a more difficult thing." are auxiliary verbs. They're not a verb. "Is" as in "He is a nice guy" and "He is cool" is a verb. Look in your dictionary or grammar reference.

If you're not familiar with auxiliary verbs in English, comparing these sentences might help you understand its use in a relative clause:

A man walks + He runs -> A man who runs walks.
("Run" and "walk" are verbs. "Walk" is the main verb.)

A man can walk + He can run -> A man who can run can walk.
("Can"s are modals. "Run" and "walk" are verbs. "Walk" is the main verb.)

A man walked + He had run -> A man who had run walked.
("Had" is a modal. "Run" and "walk" are verbs. "Had run" is past perfect. "Walk" is the main verb.)

A man can walk + He is running -> A man who is running can walk.
("Is" is an auxiliary verb. "Can" is a modal. "Run" and "walk" are verbs. "Is running" is progressive. "Walk" is the main verb.)

The man is cool + He is running -> The man who is running is cool.
(The "is" in a relative clause is an auxiliary verb. The other "is" a verb, and this is the main verb. "Run" is a verb. "Is running" is progressive.)

As furrykef said, whether it's in a relative clause doesn't matter. A verb is a verb. Certainly it can't be the main verb, but it has nothing to do with its tense/aspect.
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Re: ~て form newbie question

Postby Sairana » Mon 11.30.2009 2:54 am

magamo wrote:They're not a verb. "Is" as in "He is a nice guy" and "He is cool" is a verb. Look in your dictionary or grammar reference.


This isn't about the word "is". It's about the function of "running" in the phrase "The running man" or "The man who is running".

The word 'who' here is not the interrogative, it's the head of the subject complement. This makes "running" the participle, which is not a verb in function, name, syntax, etc. It is -not- the progressive. If you would label it at all, you would say it is the present participle, acting as an adjective.

It's okay that you really can't grasp the concept of a participle. Most native English speakers don't get it either.
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Re: ~て form newbie question

Postby magamo » Mon 11.30.2009 3:18 am

I don't think anyone said the "who" was interrogative. How come you assume people are thinking it's interrogative when furrykef and I are saying the "running" is in a "relative clause"? Isn't it obvious it's a relative pronoun? "Be" is important because whether it is a verb or an auxiliary verb is directly related to whether the "running" is a present participle or progressive continuous. The (incomplete) sentence is not a "reduced relative clause." It's a full-fledged relative clause.

Anyway, what about the example I gave in an earlier post?

magamo wrote:I don't like the man who is running the show.

Obviously you ignored this. So let me ask you this again. Is this "running" a present participle acting as an adjective? Is the "is" a verb or an auxiliary verb?

Why do you ignore the "A man who eats bananas" and other examples where a verb in a relative clause is taking another tense such as past perfect?

Edit: OK. I googled for "relative clause" "who is" progressive, and this is the first result:

http://www.eslgold.com/grammar/reduced_ ... auses.html

eslgold.com wrote:2. the main verb in the relative clause is progressive.

A. The man who is swimming in the lake is my father.

B. The books that are lying on the floor are mine.
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Re: ~て form newbie question

Postby furrykef » Mon 11.30.2009 3:41 am

Sairana, you basically ignored everything I said... :|

Sairana wrote:The word 'who' here is not the interrogative, it's the head of the subject complement.


As magamo said, nobody said it's the interrogative. What it is, is a relative pronoun. A relative pronoun forms a relative clause, right? A relative clause is the same as any other clause: it has a subject and a predicate. In "the man who is running", the subject is the relative pronoun "who" (with "the man" as its antecedent, of course, but that's irrelevant), and "is running" is the predicate. It works exactly the same way as a main clause. Hence, if you say that the "running" in "the man who is running" is not progressive, you must accept that it isn't progressive in "the man is running", either -- and I doubt you will find many who will agree with you on that.

By the way, if you don't agree with me that "who" is functioning as a subject pronoun, then consider the phrase "The man to whom I gave the banana." This is also a relative clause and "whom" is clearly an object; if "whom" is an object, then "who" is a subject.

So if we have the sentence, "The man who is running is thinking", a diagram would look something like this:

Image

Same structure, same meaning, so they're the same thing.


It's okay that you really can't grasp the concept of a participle.


I never thought you would say anything condescending, but ouch. What if I said this? "It's OK that you really can't grasp the concept of relative clauses working the same way as main clauses." Doesn't that kind of sting?

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Re: ~て form newbie question

Postby Harisenbon » Mon 11.30.2009 4:11 am

furrykef wrote:
It's okay that you really can't grasp the concept of a participle.


I never thought you would say anything condescending, but ouch. What if I said this? "It's OK that you really can't grasp the concept of relative clauses working the same way as main clauses." Doesn't that kind of sting?


I think that was mainly a bite back and magamo for when he said:
magamo wrote:I'm guessing you're confused because "running" is used as an intransitive verb in his example.


And other than that, I'm staying out of this. =)
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Re: ~て form newbie question

Postby furrykef » Mon 11.30.2009 4:58 am

If that's it, then I think the response is out of proportion. magamo saying "I think you're confused" isn't a slight; if none of us were confused, there would be no argument. The only question is who.

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Re: ~て form newbie question

Postby Sairana » Mon 11.30.2009 4:29 pm

magamo wrote:Edit: OK. I googled for "relative clause" "who is" progressive, and this is the first result:

http://www.eslgold.com/grammar/reduced_ ... auses.html

eslgold.com wrote:2. the main verb in the relative clause is progressive.

A. The man who is swimming in the lake is my father.

B. The books that are lying on the floor are mine.


From a site teaching English as a second language. Care to get into all the sites that teach Japanese as a second language and claim that は is the topic marker, and が is a subject marker, and that の is the possessive marker (without any allusion to the other uses of の). How about I go to native-Japanese speaking people and tell them that they have their own grammar wrong because my textbook says so.

Something that ends in ~ing doesn't automatically mean it's the progressive verb. ~ing also indicates participles and gerunds. In "The man who is running" it is a participle acting as an adjective, distinctly different than a progressive verb.

megamo wrote: I don't like the man who is running the show.


Obviously you ignored this. So let me ask you this again. Is this "running" a present participle acting as an adjective? Is the "is" a verb or an auxiliary verb?


Yes, it is the present participle acting as an adjective. The "is" here is the copula, and neither a verb nor an auxiliary in this case, such as in the sentence, "The man is greedy." Most English speakers consider a copula a verb, even though it is not.

And kef... just because you drew a picture that says "same structure" on one end doesn't make it so. As you have it diagrammed, you are equating the word "who" with the subject, making it the interrogative, such as in the question "Who is running?" It is not the same "who" in the phrase "The man who is running," so your parallel is a false friend. For comparison, in the first sentence, in Japanese, you could use 誰. In the second, you cannot.

The original point in this is that ~ing has as many functions in English as て form in Japanese, and someone decided to say that ~ing doesn't function as an adjective. It can, and does, every day.
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Re: ~て form newbie question

Postby magamo » Mon 11.30.2009 8:21 pm

Sairana wrote:From a site teaching English as a second language. Care to get into all the sites that teach Japanese as a second language and claim that は is the topic marker, and が is a subject marker, and that の is the possessive marker (without any allusion to the other uses of の). How about I go to native-Japanese speaking people and tell them that they have their own grammar wrong because my textbook says so.

This kind argument is valid only when you give a source that proves that the information is not true. For example, I can give you various sources about "は/が is not topic/subject" from academic sources in linguistics such as 文法II by 菊地康人, which is referred to in this e-book: http://www.geocities.jp/niwasaburoo/09w ... .html#9.14. But if you don't have anything to back your theory up, you're just saying, "I don't believe this."

I'll give you a link to a more reliable source about progressive aspect in a (reduced) relative clause later in this post.

I don't quite understand why I have to get into all the sites that teach simplified Japanese grammar. What kind of logic is that? Or are you simply being offensive?

Sairana wrote:Something that ends in ~ing doesn't automatically mean it's the progressive verb. ~ing also indicates participles and gerunds. In "The man who is running" it is a participle acting as an adjective, distinctly different than a progressive verb.

No one said something that ends in ~ing automatically means it's the progressive verb. furrykef and I have already given various examples where -ing is not progressive. Why do you keep ignoring our posts? Why do you keep putting words in our mouth?

Anyway, I think you want a more authoritative source. It was difficult to avoid ESL websites because usually grammar books and academic articles don't talk about it because of the fact that the progressive aspect in question is obvious, but I found this in A New Approach to English Grammar, on Semantic Principles, which is not for ESL purpose.

The following example is not about a relative clause, but a reduced relative clause. But if it can be progressive aspect in a reduced relative clause, it must work the same way in a relative clause:

John was watched kicking Marry.

Kicking is in a reduced relative clause, and according to the book, it is progressive. If you don't know what a reduced relative clause is, you can preview the relative clause section in the book on GoogleBook:

http://books.google.com/books?id=wUa0Hp ... q=&f=false

The section also has examples of relative and reduced relative clauses using "who are -ing," "that is -ing," or their reduced versions where the "-ing"s are progressive. It does not specify the tense of each verb because it's obvious or unnecessary to do so. But I guess it helps you understand why "running" is progressive in a sentence like:

"If a man who is running for President of the United States can not express his ideas in his acceptance speech without interruption, then what is to happen to the freedom of speech guaranteed to ordinary citizens?"

As for "be" being a copula, it is also called a "link verb." As the name suggests, it is a verb in this sense. I'm sorry if it was too difficult for you to understand what I meant by "verb" was a "link verb" when I asked you if it's a verb or an auxiliary verb.

The "be" in a relative clause containing a verb in the progressive tense or the omitted "be" working the same way in a reduced relative clause is called "progressive auxiliary" in the linked book.

Sairana wrote:someone decided to say that ~ing doesn't function as an adjective.

Tell me who said that and which comment you're referring to. If you ignore this request, I'll take this comment as a blatant lie. I don't want to call you a liar, so please do give us the link to the exact line you're referring to. As I already said, we already gave a lot of examples where -ing functions as an adjective, so it's quite difficult to understand your intention.

It seems it's considered offensive to say "I think you're confused because (reason)" in this forum even when it's a response to a person who ignored the "(reason)" in an earlier post. So I'll simply state a fact:

A relative clause such as "who is running" in a sentence "The man who is running is my boss" is also called an adjective clause. As the name suggests, it functions like an adjective. But each component in the clause is NOT necessarily an adjective. A noun in an adjective clause is a noun. A verb in an adjective clause is a verb. The tense/aspect is the same as when the same clause is used as a non-adjective clause such as the main clause.

This blog post may help you understand what the above explanation means:

http://my.opera.com/doantuanbk/blog/relative-clauses
Last edited by magamo on Mon 11.30.2009 9:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ~て form newbie question

Postby furrykef » Mon 11.30.2009 9:15 pm

Sairana wrote:In "The man who is running" it is a participle acting as an adjective, distinctly different than a progressive verb.


You've yet to demonstrate this or any reasoning behind this other than that "it's in a relative clause and therefore it's SPECIAL!"

Do not introduce special cases when none are necessary.

Sairana wrote:And kef... just because you drew a picture that says "same structure" on one end doesn't make it so. As you have it diagrammed, you are equating the word "who" with the subject, making it the interrogative, such as in the question "Who is running?" It is not the same "who" in the phrase "The man who is running," so your parallel is a false friend. For comparison, in the first sentence, in Japanese, you could use 誰. In the second, you cannot.


You have not read my post carefully enough and it sounds to me that you barely read it at all. :| I would appreciate it if you actually read my arguments...

First off, I explicitly said that it isn't interrogative (it's a relative pronoun), so I'm perfectly aware of that, thanks. There is no rule that "who" is a subject only when it is an interrogative. If you think otherwise, then you have false preconceptions about how relative pronouns work. They are called relative pronouns because they are nouns (albeit special nouns that can take antecedents). They function as subjects, objects, and anything else a noun can be. If you re-read my post, you will see that I said that "who" is a relative pronoun (not an interrogative) and I proved that relative pronouns can and do function as subjects:

furrykef wrote:By the way, if you don't agree with me that "who" is functioning as a subject pronoun, then consider the phrase "The man to whom I gave the banana." This is also a relative clause and "whom" is clearly an object; if "whom" is an object, then "who" is a subject.


Your confusion (yes, I do think you are confused) stems from seeing the relative pronoun as anything other than the subject of the relative clause. There is nothing that distinguishes it from such other than the (irrelevant) fact that it has an antecedent. Relative clauses work exactly the same way as main clauses (with the exception of word order, and the fact that relative pronouns can often be omitted -- but they're still "there", just like omitted pronouns in Japanese). Main clauses have a subject and a predicate. Relative clauses have a subject and a predicate. They are the same.

The burden of proof is currently on you to demonstrate that "who" is acting differently from the subject of the verb of a relative clause. You're not going to be able to prove it, because it's not true.

Where's Yudan, anyway? Surely he could get this mess sorted out? :|

magamo wrote:It seems it's considered offensive to say "I think you're confused because (reason)" in this forum even when it's a response to a person who ignored the "(reason)" in an earlier post.


It's not, and I think taking offense to it is absurd.

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Last edited by furrykef on Tue 12.01.2009 10:10 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: ~て form newbie question

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 11.30.2009 9:29 pm

My Japanese grammar is a lot better than English grammar, but I wasn't really interested in discussing this issue too much more after "an adjective is anything that comes immediately before a noun and modifies it". That's grade school textbook grammar, not real grammar. There are plenty of good grammars of English out there that people can look at if they want more information on this.
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Re: ~て form newbie question

Postby kurisuto » Tue 12.01.2009 11:33 am

Sairana wrote:
megamo wrote:I don't like the man who is running the show.


Obviously you ignored this. So let me ask you this again. Is this "running" a present participle acting as an adjective? Is the "is" a verb or an auxiliary verb?




Yes, it is the present participle acting as an adjective. The "is" here is the copula, and neither a verb nor an auxiliary in this case, such as in the sentence, "The man is greedy." Most English speakers consider a copula a verb, even though it is not.


Adjectives can't take direct objects, hence you're wrong. See, that was an easy one ! :wink:
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Re: ~て form newbie question

Postby Ben Bullock » Thu 12.17.2009 4:37 am

Kyasurin-chan wrote:This happens to be the most stupid question I will ever have to ask, but what is the purpose of the ~て form? The sources I have looked at were pretty vague on its purpose. So really, what's the difference between たべる and たべて? Is it past form like でした?


I have a list of uses of the te form which might help.
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