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How to write the kanji for さび?

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How to write the kanji for さび?

Postby pmt7ar » Thu 05.20.2010 7:14 pm

I was translating 風の谷のナウシカ and found this on vol.2; I got MAD trying to figure it out (no furigana), and at last went to the Cultural Center of the Embassy of Japan on my country where the library man 土井さん readed it for me: さび、さびる. He even warned me: "the right side has a maru 円, not an ao 青". It's the さび from さびる、赤さび色, さび色.


Then I looked for it and it really was there, on my dictionaries 三国 and LH和英, and in other 4 dictionaries I glanced at the library.

The problem is, that I cannot write it on the PC. Using windows gIME, and AjaxIme, I always get the one with 青. On internet, I found it the same way, for example: http://jisho.org/kanji/details/%E9%8C%86 , but even there, that says 6296 index for New Nelson, I went to the library and searched it on the New Nelson characters dictionary, and there it was, correctly, with the 円, not like it is on internet.

I find strange, given that I can write over 10000 characters on the PC, that one, that isn't extremely weird (its not 常用漢字, but it is still in usage), the PC doesn't recognice that character. And if I write "赤錆色" I feel that I'm writing it wrong. Is there a way to write that character?
Or is it something on my PC, that I'm seeing the kanji with an 青 on the right...

e.g. http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3517 ... 014305.jpg http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/3374 ... 814305.jpg http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/157/3201 ... 514305.jpg
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Re: How to write the kanji for さび?

Postby yangmuye » Thu 05.20.2010 7:46 pm

:sweatdrop: :sweatdrop:
You have already found the character you need.
青 and 靑 are actually the same. Japanese uses 靑, while most Chinese uses 青. There are many ways to write the same kanji. In old days, people did not really write it in the same way, but nowadays most people just write the same as the textbook.

To get a “釒靑”,you can input “錆” set your font as "meiryo" "gothic" or "mincho".
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Re: How to write the kanji for さび?

Postby pmt7ar » Thu 05.20.2010 9:04 pm

How can I change the font to display japanese text on programs / web browsers so that that character is displayed the japanese way? in notepad, MS Mincho, MS Gothic, and all other 80 fonts (defaults, like Arial, or other japanese fonts I use for photoshop) show it with 青, but I have a single font (Dotum/DotumChe) that shows it with 円. How can I change the font for japanese text on Windows to use that one?

And now I saw 靑 and 青 simultaneously with the same font, how do you write the first?
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Re: How to write the kanji for さび?

Postby furrykef » Thu 05.20.2010 11:31 pm

If even Japanese fonts are showing it with 青, it's probably not worth worrying about, to be honest.
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Re: How to write the kanji for さび?

Postby yangmuye » Thu 05.20.2010 11:48 pm

pmt7ar wrote:How can I change the font to display japanese text on programs / web browsers so that that character is displayed the japanese way? in notepad, MS Mincho, MS Gothic, and all other 80 fonts (defaults, like Arial, or other japanese fonts I use for photoshop) show it with 青, but I have a single font (Dotum/DotumChe) that shows it with 円. How can I change the font for japanese text on Windows to use that one?

And now I saw 靑 and 青 simultaneously with the same font, how do you write the first?


Well, in my system (vista home edition English version with system locale "Chinese"), Mincho, MS Gothic, Meiryo and Che and Malgun(Korean font) use “釒靑”. You'd better check your system to see if these fonts are really installed. Sometimes, windows can generate a virtual font with that name, which does not really exist but makes use of existing font. e.g. Maybe in Japanese windows sans-serif equals to MS Mincho, while in Tradition Chinese windows sans-serif equals to MS MingLi.

To change the default font of your programs/web browser is not an easy work. Even if you have changed it, the program may omit your setting. e.g. A webpage usually specifies a preferred font, if one character is not found in that font, some browsers will just leave it blank while some else will use another font instead. Most Japanese programs and webpage will use Mincho or Gothic. Please make sure they are installed properly.
You may use "mspaint" to test your font, it's more convenient than "notepad".



I use special input method so that I can input any Kanji covered in Unicode if I know how to write it.
For the reason you can see 靑 and 青 simultaneously, that's because both glyphs exist in Unicode. The experts of Unicode are not experts of Chinese. When they see 靑 and 青, they believe they should have different codes in Unicode, and their difference should be reflected in the font. But there is not another version of 錆, so a font can freely choose the glyph they like.
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Re: How to write the kanji for さび?

Postby furrykef » Fri 05.21.2010 1:29 am

yangmuye wrote:Well, in my system (vista home edition English version with system locale "Chinese"), Mincho, MS Gothic, Meiryo and Che and Malgun(Korean font) use “釒靑”. You'd better check your system to see if these fonts are really installed. Sometimes, windows can generate a virtual font with that name, which does not really exist but makes use of existing font.


I'm pretty sure I do have them. It might depend on the version of the font, which may in turn depend on the version of Windows. I'm running the U.S. version of Windows XP.


yangmuye wrote:The experts of Unicode are not experts of Chinese.


A common misperception. In fact, most if not all of the people who worked on Unicode's Han Unification were experts on East Asian languages. They conflated characters not because they didn't know any better but because there was usually no useful distinction between them. There is probably no language that distinguishes 靑 and 青 in any meaningful way when it's combined with the 金 radical, so they assigned one codepoint to both kanji. It's analogous to how a typical handwritten Arabic numeral '4' is not the same as a typical printed '4', but both share the same codepoint because a 4 is a 4, no matter how you write it.
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Re: How to write the kanji for さび?

Postby JaySee » Fri 05.21.2010 2:13 am

The fact that 錆 doesn't display "properly" here might be due to the settings of the forum, though I'm not an expert. In MS Word though, when typing さび using a Japanese font it does show the right side as 靑 for me.

Before WW2 靑 was the only variant in use in print, but in the late fourties the Japanese government decided to simplify and standardise a number of kanji, and as part of that effort 靑 was changed into 青. The problem however is that these simplifications and standardisations only affected the characters on the newly created Toyo Kanji List; since 錆 and several other kanji using 靑 were not on there, 靑 retained its original printed shape in these characters, meaning that nowadays both 靑 and 青 are in use. Realising that this is somewhat ridiculous, Asahi Shimbun does have a policy of extending the simplifications to all characters, so in this newspaper 錆 would appear with 青 on the right side.
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Re: How to write the kanji for さび?

Postby furrykef » Fri 05.21.2010 2:47 am

JaySee wrote:In MS Word though, when typing さび using a Japanese font it does show the right side as 靑 for me.


I tried it with MS Word now (previously I was trying in Wordpad) and it still has 青 for me.
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Re: How to write the kanji for さび?

Postby yangmuye » Fri 05.21.2010 8:20 am

Maybe you need a new version of this font.

http://www.ascenderfonts.com/category/j ... fonts.aspx
The version of Mincho provided by the website does also show "釒青", this version is created a 6/20/2001, modified at 3/15/2006.
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