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こと・の・もの

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こと・の・もの

Postby yangmuye » Wed 06.23.2010 12:40 am

子供たちは公園で遊んでいる_がよく見られる。
こと・の・もの which one is right?

I think の is right, if we transform the sentence 公園で遊んでいる子供たちが→子供たちは公園で遊んでいるのが, here 公園で遊んでいるの=子供たち.
How about the other two?

よろしくおねがいします
Last edited by yangmuye on Wed 06.23.2010 1:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: こと・の・もの

Postby chikara » Wed 06.23.2010 1:25 am

yangmuye wrote:子供たちは公园で游んでいる_がよく见られる。.....

Where did that sentence come from?
公园 and 见られる are new to me. Maybe you mean 公園 (park) for the first one? :think:

I would use 泳ぐ for "to swim" rather than 游ぐ but that doesn't mean it is wrong. If I was trying to say "the thing of swimming" I would use 泳ぐこと but as I don't understand your sentence I can't answer your question. :blush:
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Re: こと・の・もの

Postby yangmuye » Wed 06.23.2010 1:31 am

I'm sorry, it should be 遊 見 園, not 游 见 园. I just copied it from a Chinese website without checking. On that website all traditional kanji are converted for some reason.
I have corrected them.
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Re: こと・の・もの

Postby chikara » Wed 06.23.2010 1:49 am

OK, now I go with の :)

From "A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar";

..... in general, no is used when the preceding clause expresses something rather concrete or perceptible, while koto is used when the preceding clause expresses something rather abstract or imperceptible. .....
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Re: こと・の・もの

Postby yangmuye » Wed 06.30.2010 9:29 pm

Thanks for information, chikara.
I have found the answer in another grammar book: You can only use の when the verb means "to see" or "to hear".
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Re: こと・の・もの

Postby furrykef » Thu 07.01.2010 5:33 am

Huh? That's not true. An example from smart.fm: 彼は走るのが速い。

However, I do think it is the case that, when the verb means "see" or "hear", it is the only time there is a significant difference between の and こと. That doesn't mean that の can't be used in other situations.
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Re: こと・の・もの

Postby NileCat » Fri 07.02.2010 1:46 pm

furrykef wrote:However, I do think it is the case that, when the verb means "see" or "hear", it is the only time there is a significant difference between の and こと. That doesn't mean that の can't be used in other situations.


Could someone tell me about the "significant difference" in English?
e.g.
彼を見るのが怖い vs 彼を見ることが怖い
エンジン音を聞くのが好きだ vs エンジン音を聞くことが好きだ
彼は走るのが趣味だ vs 彼は走ることが趣味だ

It seems to me that there are no big differences. :roll:
Thank you. :)
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Re: こと・の・もの

Postby furrykef » Sat 07.03.2010 1:20 am

Sorry for the confusion. The difference is actually when the verb at the end of the sentence is a verb of perception, not the verb that modifies の or こと. Here's an example, I think from one of my books:

花子がピアノを弾くのを聞いた。
I heard Hanako play the piano.

花子がピアノを弾くことを聞いた。
I heard that Hanako plays the piano.
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Re: こと・の・もの

Postby NileCat » Sat 07.03.2010 1:29 pm

furrykef wrote:Sorry for the confusion. The difference is actually when the verb at the end of the sentence is a verb of perception, not the verb that modifies の or こと. Here's an example, I think from one of my books:

花子がピアノを弾くのを聞いた。
I heard Hanako play the piano.

花子がピアノを弾くことを聞いた。
I heard that Hanako plays the piano.


Thank you, Kef!
I'm relieved to know my understanding of the Japanese was right. :)
We are on the same page!
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Re: こと・の・もの

Postby nicemon » Sun 07.11.2010 1:41 am

According to what I learned:

こと: used when describing an action (usually in abstract way)
もの: denotes, or, means like "the thing that/of blabla" (concrete)
の: just makes the verb clause nominal. It's the generic way to describe a verb clause.

example:
ピアノを弾くことが大好きだ is the same as ピアノを弾くのが大好きだ, meaning-wise.
ガールフレンドいないでラブホテルにゆくようなものはできないよ
is the same as ガールフレンドいないでラブホテルにゆくようなのはできないよ, object-wise.
もの is technically not related to こと, as it is not transparent.

Bottom line, it still depends on the context. As long as it means what you want to say. :D
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Re: こと・の・もの

Postby NileCat » Mon 07.12.2010 12:42 pm

nicemon wrote:example:
ピアノを弾くことが大好きだ is the same as ピアノを弾くのが大好きだ, meaning-wise.
ガールフレンドいないでラブホテルにゆくようなものはできないよ
is the same as ガールフレンドいないでラブホテルにゆくようなのはできないよ, object-wise.
もの is technically not related to こと, as it is not transparent.

Excuse me but the second example sounds very odd to me.

Regarding the "ラブホテル" part:
ラブホテルに行くようなことはできないよ。
ラブホテルに行くなんてできないよ。
ラブホテルに行くのなんてできないよ。
ラブホテルに行くことなんてできないよ。
You can't apply "もの" here.

(それは彼女なしで)ラブホテルに行くようなものだ。 is fine.
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