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replacement of topic "ha"

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replacement of topic "ha"

Postby yangmuye » Wed 06.30.2010 10:01 pm

Hi minasan, I have a question about the particle "ha".
Sometimes I have to do remove the topic "ha", e.g. 兄〔は→が〕卒業した大学
But I don't know how to to choose the right particle for the following sentences.
e.g.
親〔は→?に〕お金が無い人(the "existence" verbs)
国民〔は→?が〕野球が好きな国(the "feeling" verbs)

The problems usually happen when I want to change the sentence to 連体形 or to put a wh-word into the the topic position.

〔象→何〕〔は→?に?の〕鼻が長い
〔私→誰〕〔は→?が?に〕は日本に行ったことがある。

宜しくお願いします。
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Re: replacement of topic "ha"

Postby NileCat » Thu 07.01.2010 3:03 pm

I'm afraid I can't explain the function grammatically though, the following is what I thought when I read your question regarding 兄+卒業+大学.


a) 兄は大学を卒業した。
The "は" indicates that "兄" is the subject word.
Subject(兄) + Object(大学) + Verb(卒業)
This sentence seems to be the standard form.
Nevertheless, meaning-wise, the most important "topic" word here can be either "兄" or "大学" depends on the context or accent. Like;
That was "兄" who graduated from college. (Not my sister)
or
That was "大学" which my brother graduated from. (Not a high school)
Both are possible.


b) 兄が大学を卒業した。
The "が" indicates that "兄" is the topic word. It emphasizes that.
This sentence USUALLY only means like;
That was "兄" who graduated from college.
(Please note that it's not ALWAYS.)


c) 兄が卒業した大学
This is not "a complete sentence". It seems to me like that is only "a phrase explaining about the college".
The main word is "大学" which is a noun.
"卒業した" is used as if it is an adjective. And this adjective needs "somebody" because the meaning is "graduated". Who? Then, when you put the word "兄", the function of "が" is like "of" in English.
That's why, in this phrase, the "が" is interchangeable with "の".
兄が卒業した大学 = 兄の卒業した大学 
= [brother] [of] [graduation] [did] college (the college that my brother graduated from)
But "は" doesn't have the function of "of". So, 兄は卒業した大学 doesn't make sense.

d) 私は兄が卒業した大学に入学した。
I entered the college that my brother graduated from.
Subject(私) + Object(兄が卒業した大学) + Verb(入学)


e) However, in certain contexts, "兄は卒業した大学" totally makes sense.
This is a different usage meaning "the college that only my brother graduated from".

f) 彼女は、兄は卒業した大学を退学になった。
She flunked out of the college that only my brother graduated from.
(Hmm...this translation doesn't seem accurate for some reason though....)


I have no idea about the "proper" explanation or definition in the textbooks. And I realize that there are bunch of exceptions. But those above are my interpretation in my way.


Regarding the choice of the right particles in your other examples, unfortunately we need the contexts. The change can't be done like you do in English, I'm afraid. For instance, what do you mean by "親はお金がない人"?
And "国民は野球が好きな国" sounds like an quite unnatural expression to me. We can't get the nuance without the context.

象は鼻が長い。 sounds fine. But what kind of question would you like to make with 何?
Both are possible.
→何は鼻が長いのですか?
→何の鼻が長いのですか?
Never "に".

私は日本に行ったことがある。 
→誰が日本に行ったことがあるのですか?
→誰は日本に行ったことがあるのですか?
Never "に".
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Re: replacement of topic "ha"

Postby yangmuye » Thu 07.01.2010 4:13 pm

NileCat さん ありがとうございます。

e) However, in certain contexts, "兄は卒業した大学" totally makes sense.
This is a different usage meaning "the college that only my brother graduated from".
f) 彼女は、兄は卒業した大学を退学になった。
She flunked out of the college that only my brother graduated from.
(Hmm...this translation doesn't seem accurate for some reason though....)

I have heard of this, however I don't know the exact usage. I will study it latter.

Regarding the choice of the right particles in your other examples, unfortunately we need the contexts. The change can't be done like you do in English, I'm afraid. For instance, what do you mean by "親はお金がない人"?
And "国民は野球が好きな国" sounds like an quite unnatural expression to me. We can't get the nuance without the context.


For example
「彼の親はお金が無い」then he is "a (kind of) person whose ..."「親?お金が無い人です」
「日本(の)国民は野球が好き」then Japan is "a (kind of) country whose"「国民?野球が好き国」
And I want to ask "which country is the one whose ..." "Who is the one whose ...", what should I say?
どこの国民?野球が好き
誰の親?お金が無い
誰?野球が好き(who likes playing baseball)
誰?お金が無い(Who has no money/needs money)
Unlike in your first sentence「私は兄が卒業した大学に入学した」, the subject は(兄は) can be simply replaced by a subject が,
the はin these 4 sentences is not a subject は or object は. I don't know how to change it.
For wh-question sentences, I suppose we can use 野球が好きのは誰 to avoid it. However it does not work in 連用節 like "国民?野球が好き な国".
I have also seen someone use forms like this "国民が野球好き"

Both are possible.
→何は鼻が長いのですか?
→何の鼻が長いのですか?
Never "に".

私は日本に行ったことがある。 
→誰が日本に行ったことがあるのですか?
→誰は日本に行ったことがあるのですか?
Never "に".

I was taught that the wh-words can not be used before は. :shock:

ご解答いただき 本当にありがとうございました。
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Re: replacement of topic "ha"

Postby NileCat » Fri 07.02.2010 11:59 am

Sorry. I'm afraid I couldn't see your point. :blush:

For example
「彼の親はお金が無い」then he is "a (kind of) person whose ..."「親?お金が無い人です」
「日本(の)国民は野球が好き」then Japan is "a (kind of) country whose"「国民?野球が好き国」
And I want to ask "which country is the one whose ..." "Who is the one whose ...", what should I say?


*** Which country is the one whose... ***
国民が野球好きなのはどこの国ですか? sounds relatively natural.
However, do you really want to use the word "国" twice for some reason?
Is that your question?

  OR: Do you only want to know the basic rules to make a question? Like:
 彼は野球が好きです。
  → 野球が好きなのは誰ですか?
  → 誰が野球好きなのですか?
  OR: Do you want to know the difference between "が" and "は"?
  → 野球は好きなのは誰ですか? (hates football)

Then, returning to your example:
国民が野球が好きなのはどこの国ですか? makes sense. But it still sounds too wordy to me.

And, grammatically speaking, the following is correct too.
国民は野球が好きなのはどこの国ですか? (Not the king)



*** Who is the one whose... ***
彼の親は金がない。
→ 親はお金がないのは誰ですか?
→ 親がお金がないのは誰ですか?
→ 親にお金がないのは誰ですか?

Do you want to know the differences?
OR: Do you want to know the way to begin the sentence with "誰"? Like,
誰が、お金のない親の子供なのですか? 
Well... we usually don't say 誰がお金のない親を持っていますか? although that is grammatically correct.


I have a feeling that I haven't answered to your questions properly. But please understand. Your questions seem to be containing some different layers in terms of grammar and idiomatic expressions.
Please feel free to ask further questions. I'll try to find a way to answer! (I don't know if a native speaker's viewpoint can be helpful though.. :sweatdrop: )

I was taught that the wh-words can not be used before は. :shock:

Ah, that seems to be correct in a way. Please forget what I wrote if you may.
Sorry about that.
JFYI, however, we use them in reality. In order to specify the question point. Like the function of the capital letters in "WHAT is it?"

EDIT: I kind of looked for a good example of "wh-word followed by は"
Sorry. This is very long. But I suppose you could see the nuance in the context.
http://eow.alc.co.jp/%e4%bd%95%e3%81%af ... dk=JE&pg=1
Thus, "あなたは何は好きじゃないの?" is totally natural in our real life. Even if textbooks say no. :P ( If you were a grammar freak, you could call it "限定的用法".)
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Re: replacement of topic "ha"

Postby yangmuye » Fri 07.02.2010 7:26 pm

丁寧なご説明いただいて、ありがとうございました m( _ _ )m

I have a feeling that I haven't answered to your questions properly. But please understand. Your questions seem to be containing some different layers in terms of grammar and idiomatic expressions.
Please feel free to ask further questions. I'll try to find a way to answer! (I don't know if a native speaker's viewpoint can be helpful though.. )

A native speaker's viewpoint is always helpful. My examples are not good and impractical, I think. :think:
I didn't realize that Japanese can have so many different ways to express(especially I didn't know は can also be used here).

When I asked this question, I supposed,
1. There are some ~が~ predicates, must use ~は~が~ form.
2. は can't be used in a 連體節(a sentence functions as a adjective)
3. wh-words can be used before は
So I wanted to find a way to express English attributive clause. However it seems that all of them 3 are incorrect. :sweatdrop:

Let me propose a new question:
1. There are some ~が~ expressions usually take ~は as its subject. Are there any other particles can be used here? Is there any difference between them?
2. How to question for the ~は part of the sentence.

And let me classify the expressions into several groups.
1. ~が好き、~が嫌い、~が上手、idiomatic ~が~
足が速い
2. general ~が形容詞, general AのBがC→AはBがC
頭が痛い
e.g.
私〔○は・?が・?には〕頭が痛い。
彼は私〔?は・○が・?の・×に〕頭が痛いこと知っていない。
誰〔?は・○が・?の・×に〕頭が痛いんですか。
頭が痛いのは誰ですか。
痛いのは誰の頭ですか。
あなた〔○は・?の・×が〕どこ〔?は・○が〕痛いのですか。
In the group 2, AはB is from AのB. Maybe it can be separated as in "(頭)が痛いのは(誰)ですか。"

3. (具体的なもの)がある、ない own
お金がない
4. (抽象的なもの)がある、ない have/is
私〔○は・?が・×に・?には〕人気がある。
彼は私〔?は・○が・?の・×に〕人気があること知っていない。
誰〔?は・○が・?の・×に〕人気があるんですか。
?人気があるのは誰ですか。
×あるのは誰の人気ですか。
×あなた〔○は・?の・×が・に〕何〔?は・○が〕あるのですか。
In the group 3, it seems that に can be used. 彼(に)お金がないことを知っている

I know it's difficult to explain the reason. So I just want to know which one is grammatically correct, which one understandable, which one is preferred.
If more than one expressions are natural, what's the difference between them?
As for the use of は, I know it's very hard to explain the usage, and I'm going to study it later.

野球は好きなのは誰ですか? (hates football)

国民は野球が好きなのはどこの国ですか?

Does it mean: If it's 野球, he like it, (if it's not 野球, I don't know/care. He may like it, but he also may not.). Who is him?


彼の親は金がない。
→ 親はお金がないのは誰ですか?
→ 親がお金がないのは誰ですか?
→ 親にお金がないのは誰ですか?
Do you want to know the differences?

Is there any difference between 親が and 親に?


日本語を初めて勉強してる中国人だから、書くことは全然だめですが、読むことはちょっと無難。だから心配なく日本語で書いてもいいですよ。(変なところがあれば直してください。)
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Re: replacement of topic "ha"

Postby NileCat » Sat 07.03.2010 2:26 pm

e.g.
私〔○は・?が・?には〕頭が痛い。
彼は私〔?は・○が・?の・×に〕頭が痛いこと知っていない。
誰〔?は・○が・?の・×に〕頭が痛いんですか。
頭が痛いのは誰ですか。
痛いのは誰の頭ですか。
あなた〔○は・?の・×が〕どこ〔?は・○が〕痛いのですか。


○私は頭が痛い。
△私が頭が痛い
 → e.g.1 私が頭が痛いのがわからないの?
 → e.g.2
 A「何を買ってきたの?」
 B「頭痛薬だよ」
 A「え? 私はもう直ったよ。どこも痛くないよ」
 B「私が頭が痛いんだよ」or 「私の頭が痛いんだよ」
X私には


○彼は私が頭が痛いことを知らない。
○彼は私は頭が痛いことを知らない。
○彼は私の頭が痛いことを知らない。
X 彼は私に

○誰が頭が痛いんですか?
○誰の頭が痛いんですか? (sounds very odd though, grammatically correct)
△X(Grammatically wrong) 誰は頭が痛いんですか?
X△(Different meaning)誰に頭が痛いんですか?(Who is annoying to you?)

○頭が痛いのは誰ですか?
○痛いのは誰の頭ですか? (sounds very odd though)

○あなたはどこが痛いのですか?

私〔○は・?が・×に・?には〕人気がある。
彼は私〔?は・○が・?の・×に〕人気があること知っていない。
誰〔?は・○が・?の・×に〕人気があるんですか。
?人気があるのは誰ですか。
×あるのは誰の人気ですか。
×あなた〔○は・?の・×が・に〕何〔?は・○が〕あるのですか。


○私は人気がある。
○私には人気がある。

○彼は私は人気があることを知らない。
○彼は私には人気があることを知らない。
○彼は私に人気があることを知らない。
○彼は私が人気があるということを知らない。

○誰が人気があるんですか?
○誰は人気があるんですか?
○誰に人気があるんですか? (Usually means " to whom" but it depends the context)
○誰には人気があるんですか?

○人気があるのは誰ですか?

△あなたには何があるのですか? (Very vague question)
△あなたに何があるのですか?


野球は好きなのは誰ですか? (hates football)
国民は野球が好きなのはどこの国ですか?

Does it mean: If it's 野球, he like it, (if it's not 野球, I don't know/care. He may like it, but he also may not.). Who is him?
Correct.

彼の親は金がない。
→ 親はお金がないのは誰ですか?
→ 親がお金がないのは誰ですか?
→ 親にお金がないのは誰ですか?
Do you want to know the differences?

Is there any difference between 親が and 親に?

親にお金がない Literally translated, "there is no money at parents"


助詞の使い方は、日本人でもよく間違えます。
また、文脈がない場合には、「正しい/正しくない」を判断するのは非常に困難です。
助詞を文法的に正確にお使いになりたいのであれば、文法書を読まれることをおすすめします。私がこのトピックでお伝えしたかったのは、「文法書通りでない使い方もありますよ」ということです。
ご参考までに。
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Re: replacement of topic "ha"

Postby yangmuye » Sun 07.04.2010 1:04 pm

Thank you very much for your explanation.

And the last questions:
If I replace 頭が痛い with 腹が立つ, will “私の腹が立ったんです”“これが私の腹が立つ理由だ” make sense?(can の be used here?)

親にお金がない Literally translated, "there is no money at parents"

So they are just literally different?
Or 親にお金がない does not imply ownership between 親 and お金?

私は人気がある
I'm popular.
私には人気がある
"I" am popular?
He's popular with "me"?



助詞の使い方は、日本人でもよく間違えます。
また、文脈がない場合には、「正しい/正しくない」を判断するのは非常に困難です。
助詞を文法的に正確にお使いになりたいのであれば、文法書を読まれることをおすすめします。私がこのトピックでお伝えしたかったのは、「文法書通りでない使い方もありますよ」ということです。
ご参考までに。

助詞を正確に使いとこ、確かに一番困難ですね。文法書通りでない使い方があるし、文法書載らない使い方もたくさんあります。実はこの疑問も私文法書を讀む時出てきたのですね。
文法書には「この場合は『~ば~が~』という構文を取る」とか「連体節の中には、主題の「は」は現れません」とか書いてありますが、いったいどの助詞が取られるかは書いたことありません。だから日本人に聞いてみたのです。
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Re: replacement of topic "ha"

Postby NileCat » Sun 07.04.2010 2:24 pm

yangmuye wrote:And the last questions:
If I replace 頭が痛い with 腹が立つ, will “私の腹が立ったんです”“これが私の腹が立つ理由だ” make sense?(can の be used here?)

Those two sentences make sense at least. Yet, the context that counts.

私"の" sounds like you do want to emphasise "MY (nerve/anger)" instead of just saying "I got upset".

親にお金がない Literally translated, "there is no money at parents"

So they are just literally different?
Or 親にお金がない does not imply ownership between 親 and お金?
Well, they obviously look different, don't they?  (に and は)
Meaning-wise, you can convey the similar meaning.
Grammar-wise, different.
Nuance-wise, the literal translation could be a clue, couldn't it?

私は人気がある
I'm popular.
Correct.
私には人気がある
"I" am popular?

Well, I think that's correct.
「には」の用法を辞書で調べてみてください。
私には、「限定」または「強調」、に感じられます。( To me, it seems like....)
繰り返しになりますが、助詞の置き換えの可否は文脈によりますし、意味も文脈によって変化します。
もしも「私には」が、「限定のために」使用されているのであれば、「私には」よりも「私は」の方が「私」を強調しているという場合も存在します。

私はウナギだ。
私もウナギだ。
私にウナギだ。
私がウナギだ。
私にはウナギだ。
私からウナギだ。
私ってウナギだ。
私のウナギだ。
私のもウナギだ。
私、ウナギだ。
私、ウナギ。

Noboby can tell "which is correct" or "what they mean" without the context.
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Re: replacement of topic "ha"

Postby yangmuye » Sun 07.04.2010 7:44 pm

Is there any difference between 親が and 親に?

親にお金がない Literally translated, "there is no money at parents"

So they are just literally different?
Or 親にお金がない does not imply ownership between 親 and お金?

Well, they obviously look different, don't they?  (に and は)
Nuance-wise, the literal translation could be a clue, couldn't it?
ーーー
I I mean 親が and 親に. I try to grasp the nuance. :sweatdrop:

「には」の用法を辞書で調べてみてください。

I have forgotten には is an idiomatic expression rather than に+は

Think you for all your replies. I will read more examples to learn the use.
本当にありがとうございました。
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Re: replacement of topic "ha"

Postby NileCat » Sun 07.04.2010 9:37 pm

yangmuye wrote:
Is there any difference between 親が and 親に?

So they are just literally different?
Or 親にお金がない does not imply ownership between 親 and お金?

Well, they obviously look different, don't they?  (に and は)
Nuance-wise, the literal translation could be a clue, couldn't it?
ーーー
I I mean 親が and 親に. I try to grasp the nuance. :sweatdrop:

Sorry! My mistake!

The difference is,
grammartically,
親がお金がない
The subject word could be 親が in a sense.
Parents Is Money Not → The parents have no money.
親にお金がない
The subject word is お金が.
At Parents, Money Isn't There → (same meaning)
親はお金がない
Here, は seems to me like 限定 or 強調 again.
"Parents" = No money
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