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causative-passive question

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causative-passive question

Postby squarezebra » Sun 01.02.2011 10:29 am

Hello again.
2 questions in as many days. I'm really relying on your generosity >.>

My questions related to the use of the causitive-passive and whether a person can (grammatically speaking) make a person to be caused to have something done to them.

An example will make it clearer what I'm getting at (hopefully)
Example (if im not missing something completely)
A question in my JLPT book was thus:

無理に子供にピアノを_______たら、すぐに止めてしまった。
a)習っ
b)習わせ
c)習われ
d) 習わされ

Now I was considering whether it was (b) or (d), the correct answer being (b) on the basis again that (d) just doesn't look right. if (d) were right, that would be like saying that:
'When I made the child have the experience of being caused to play against his will, he soon stopped'

So the bottom line is (d) is wrong as you cannot say 無理に子供にピアノを習わされたら、すぐに止めてしまった。I know this is wrong, but I can't 100% put my finger on exactly why it is wrong.

Can anyone clearly say exactly why (d) is wrong so I'm not sat around thinking "well i know its just wrong, but I can't say why". is it that you can't make someone be caused to have something done to them, or to make someone to be caused to do something.

Heh, brain-twister ><
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Re: causative-passive question

Postby Ongakuka » Sun 01.02.2011 12:17 pm

If it was (d) it would be the child making YOU learn piano.
なぜなら、おまえは・・・・・・人形だ
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Re: causative-passive question

Postby squarezebra » Sun 01.02.2011 1:55 pm

Haha, I didn't spot that.
That would make a grammatical sentence, but the context would be rather odd right?
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Re: causative-passive question

Postby Ongakuka » Sun 01.02.2011 2:17 pm

Right. That's one of the things that bugs me about questions where the correct answer relies on going with the conventional option. Having said that, I suppose it is quite impossible for a child to have the capacity to force an elder to learn piano, except in the world of manga perhaps ;)
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Re: causative-passive question

Postby squarezebra » Sun 01.02.2011 2:58 pm

And I was coming at these questions from the viewpoint that only 1 answer would be grammatically correct. I hadn't given much thought to (d) being possible because I'd assumed everything but the correct answer had to be completely wrong.
Yet again, I've learnt something new.

Thanks Ongakuka!
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Re: causative-passive question

Postby Ongakuka » Sun 01.02.2011 4:00 pm

Not at all :) even if JLPT can be annoying, you still would have got the answer right, just by going with what felt right.
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