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Causative form of the verbs with を/に

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Causative form of the verbs with を/に

Postby Minarai » Fri 09.09.2011 12:19 pm

Greetings :D

I am writing this post in order to get a better understanding on what in linguistics is often called "Permission causative" and "Coercive Causative" with intransitive verbs. I'll try to write as clearer as I can.

The fact is that I have no problem when dealing with sentences like the following ones >


母は私にポケベルを使わせます
父が兄にその本を読ませます

According to a context given, they could mean something like

"Mum lets me use ポケベル" or "Mum makes me use ポケベル" and "Dad lets my elder brother read his /that book" or "Dad makes my elder brother read his / that book"

Am I right?

Be it as it may, the fact is that I cannot understand what happens with intransitive verbs, as I told you before.
Of course, because of the intransitive verb, there is no object in the sentence.

Therefore, if the basic grammar of the causative form is, generally speaking, " N1はN2にN3をさせる", when writing intransitive verbs this changes in "N1はN2に/をさせる".

As everybody knows, either of them (に/を) can be used now, and I expect N2 to be a person in any case 人 (if it is not, would please somebody explain me why... :blush: )

So my question is :

When should I use N2 に or N2を?

My book says :

When N2 is the agent and N1 the subject of the verb, then I have to use N1はN2にさせる; on the other hand, if N1 is the agent but also the subject of the sentence, then I use N1はN2をさせる.


So an example is :

母は妹に買い物に行かせます (According to a context given > Mum lets / makes my sister go shopping).
With reference to what my textbook says (see above), this means that

母 = subject of 行かせます
妹 = the agent, she will go shopping

Example 2 :

母は妹を買い物に行かせます

Only "Mum makes my sister go shopping".

However, with reference to my textbook again >

母 = subject of 行かせます
母 = the agent

What does now "母 = the agent" mean? Mum of course won't go shopping, will she?

Example 3

店員はお客さんを待たせました

Now here I have a transitive verb, why uses N2をVerb and not N3をVerb?

To sum up :

I would appreciate if anybody could explain to me "example 3" and the case of "に/を" with intransitive verbs (Causative forms)

Sorry for the hard topic, but I've thought about it since esterday... coming to nothing >_<
Any single word about this post is highly appreciated, thank you.

よろしくお願いいたします
Oooh it's always the same...c'mon Zenigata!Let me go, I'm just a gentleman!Good bye paparino!

...Make a better world, that's for you and me...
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Re: Causative form of the verbs with を/に

Postby NileCat » Fri 09.09.2011 5:14 pm

Japanese transitive verbs take を.
私は 本を 読む
私は テレビを 見る

When you make them causative,
母は 私に 本を 読ませる
母は 私に テレビを 見させる

And, because they are transitive, you can say
母は 私に 読ませる (本を)
母は 私に 見させる (テレビを)

The (inner) subject 私 always take に, not を, because it’s confusing if you use を here.


Japanese intransitive verbs take に or が or と or such.
私は 学校に 行く
私は 友達と 会う

When you make them causative, you can use を.
母は 私を 学校に 行かせる
母は 私を 友達と 会わせる

However, in the colloquial usage, に is also acceptable in many cases.
母は 私に 学校に 行かせる
(It sounds slightly odd because of the double に, though)
母は 私に 友達と 会わせる
(It sounds off depending on the context, however, it’s used in many cases)

A: 母は妹を買い物に行かせます
B: 母は妹に買い物に行かせます
I’d say A might sound more proper although B is usually acceptable in our daily life. I'm not so sure but I suppose it's grammatically correct as well. (I don’t know what “the agent” means here) Nuance-wise...well...I have to say it depends on the context or the position of the accent if it's spoken....Sorry. I appreciate if someone could help me.


Nonetheless, there are a few exceptional transitive verbs such as 待つ or 期待する or 失望する that take を instead of に for some reason. It seems tough to explain why. Here is a link to the relatively straightforward explanation in Japanese, though.
http://nihon5ch.net/contents/ch5/kosatsu/43.html
Give me some time if you may. :lol:
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Re: Causative form of the verbs with を/に

Postby Minarai » Sat 09.10.2011 3:34 am

そんなに親切な説明をしてくれて、本当にありがとうございます。

私はそのリンクをみてみたけれど、トピックがちょっとむずかしいから、まだよく分かりませんでした。どうもすみません。しかし、Intransitive verbsがあったら、助詞の中で、[を]の使い方が一番いいのが分かってきました。これから、私の日本語の勉強を続けることが出来ます。

どうもありがとうございます。
Oooh it's always the same...c'mon Zenigata!Let me go, I'm just a gentleman!Good bye paparino!

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Re: Causative form of the verbs with を/に

Postby NileCat » Sat 09.10.2011 11:04 am

Hi, Minarai.
To begin with, I want to let you know that I was glad to know that you were studying Japanese and that I noticed your Japanese has improved very much!

Regarding the を/に problem, I have realized that it is a very difficult issue even for us native speakers.
I’ve found out an interesting resource about this subject. Unfortunately it is written in Japanese, however, I think it is informative for many advanced learners.
http://opac.kansaigaidai.ac.jp/cgi-bin/ ... f#search='日本語 文法 使役'
This essay analyzes the usage of causative form of Japanese intransitive verbs mainly for the teachers who teach Japanese to foreign students.
Let me roughly introduce the contents.

1. Introduction
Even though the causative form is a subject of JLPT-3 level, many teachers would have found that the explanation of the common textbooks is just tricky or confusing.

2&3. Common definition of the particles in the causative form
The author shows how it is explained in some major textbooks. For instance, in “日本語基本文法辞典” (1986), it explains, quote “When the main verb is an intransitive verb, the cause is marked by either o or ni …When ni is used the cause has taken an action intentionally. O, on the other hand, can be used regardless of the causee’s volition, …”
In “みんなの日本語” (1998), it explains, quote, “自動詞なら the subject of an action (被使役者)には「を」が付き、他動詞のときは「に」が付く”
In “Yookoso!” (1994), it explains, quote, “自動詞の場合「を」「に」どちらも可能だが、「を」のときは coercive causative で無理矢理というニュアンスがある。一方「に」のときはしたがる被使役者にすることを許可したという意味がある。他動詞の場合は「を」しか取れないので ambiguious”.

4. Survey results (to 40 native speakers)

(e.g)
1: The teacher let the student go to the restroom.
先生は学生( )トイレに行かせてあげました。
24 chose を
16 chose に

….
Well, Minarai, in short, your insight is right. And the nuance of に and を is kind of complicated. I just wanted to post this because I myself needed to confirm it.

In terms of the exceptional usage, I promise I’ll try to find a way to explain it in English anytime soon. See you later!
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Re: Causative form of the verbs with を/に

Postby NileCat » Sun 09.11.2011 11:03 am

待つ is a transitive verb.
But unlike other transitive verbs, the agent (=person caused=the subject of an action=被使役者) takes を when the sentence is causative form. Why is that?
(e.g) 店員はお客さんを待たせました

In order to understand the rule, let’s take a look at the declarative form of these two sentences.

1. 「AはBを食べる」(Annie eats banana)
2. 「AはBを待つ」 (Annie waits for Bob)
   
Do you see the difference?

No1 is a normal transitive word. The causative sentence is to be:
「Cathy は Annie に Banana を 食べさせる」
(Cathy makes Annie eat Banana) 

No2 is the exceptional transitive word. The point is that, meaning-wise, it has already stated that Bob makes Annie wait in this declarative form.
=「Bob は Annie を 待たせる」

Yes, it looks exceptional because it uses を. But did you notice that there is no Cathy here?
So, if you want to make a “causative form” in the same pattern as No1, it has to be:
「Cathy は Annie に Bob を 待たせる」
Now it doesn’t look exceptional, right? It takes に as usual.

Now, let’s take a look at slightly different pattern.

3. 「Annie eats Bob」
4. 「Annie waits for Bob」

The causative form is to be:
3 → Bob makes Annie eat Bob (himself).
  「Bob は Annie に Bob を 食べさせる」
→ 「Bob は Annieに 彼を食べさせる」
4 → Bob makes Annie wait for Bob.
  「ボブ は アニーに ボブを 待たせる」
→ And, we usually omit the first アニー[にボブ]を待たせる part because it sounds just redundant.
→ 「ボブは アニー 待たせる」

It looks like exceptional because it takes を. But grammatically speaking, the idea is very clear. Besides, this usage can imply that Bob makes her wait for "nobody but himself". You see? If you say "Bob は アニー 待たせる", the listener would just wonder "wait for whom?"

Now, I think I managed to answer to all your questions.
:D
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Re: Causative form of the verbs with を/に

Postby Minarai » Tue 09.13.2011 10:04 am

Hi Nilecat, thanks so much for replying. I didn't manage to write sooner because of my studies, sorry. I will read your posts as soon as I can and I will anwer you back later. I need some time to think about this topic so as to fully understand it.

Nevertheless, today I've taken the Japanese test I was talking about... hoping that everything will be ok.

Thanks yet again :D

Ps : I am delighted of the fact that you still remember me!
Oooh it's always the same...c'mon Zenigata!Let me go, I'm just a gentleman!Good bye paparino!

...Make a better world, that's for you and me...
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Re: Causative form of the verbs with を/に

Postby Ranja » Thu 09.15.2011 1:42 am

待たす or 待たせる is not the causative form of 待つ, but itself a transitive verb like 動かす、どける、どかす、起こす、or 走らす.
e.g.
・彼はニューヨークで事件を起こす
・死せる孔明、生ける仲達を走らす
・Mars Pathfinderが岩をどける
・彼はタクシーを待たせる

It is rare to make the causative form from these verbs, but it is certainly possible:

・彼女は彼にニューヨークで事件を起こさせる。
・NASAは、Mars Pathfinderに岩をどけさせる。


So, when you aren't very sure whether the verb is the causative form or not, it's always a good idea to look it up in the dictionary. :)
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Re: Causative form of the verbs with を/に

Postby yangmuye » Thu 09.15.2011 7:21 am

Hi, There is the same post here: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthre ... p=11245693
This is my reply posted there and I'm waiting for native speaker comments. 

http://nihon5ch.net/contents/ch5/kosatsu/43.html も拝見しましたが、考え方は私とは違いますが、「待たせる」を体系的な派生形として認めないという点においては、私と同感です。

日本語の長文ですみません。

受動者の意志がまったく感じられない場合も、「ニ」より、「を」の方が好かれるのではないでしょうか。

すべての感情表現は「ニ」は使われません。
○お客さんを困らせる
×お客さんに困らせる
○お客さんを安心させる
×お客さんに安心させる

行動を行う者が受動者よりむしろ自分である場合は、慣用表現>他動詞>使役接辞の順番で動詞を選び、「~を」>「~に~を」の順番で助詞を決める、と私は思います。
主語が行為者と使役者の二重役割になると、動詞の意味も微妙に変わるので、その違いを「を」で示すことになります。厳密に言えば、体系的な派生でなく、語彙的な違いがあるので、別の動詞と見なしたほうがよいでしょう。

子供を食べさせる
子供にご飯を食べさせる
子供に服を着せる
子供を並べる
子供を並ばせる
(公園で)犬を歩かせる

など、規則を立て難いです。


使役者が意志だけを示す場合ですが、
他動詞の場合は、たいてい「を」がないと何をするか解らなくなり省略できないので、二度「を」を使わず「に」を使います。
自動詞の場合は、無意志動詞は行為者の意志を表さないので、使役者の意志も表せず、別の動詞になりますが、意志動詞は「を」と「に」とどちらでもよさそうで、「を」の方がよく使われるのではないでしょうか。


最後に、Lupen The Thirdさんがお書きになった「お客さんを待たせました」の例文は「お客さんを困らせる」とよく似たでしょうね。
「お客さんが待ちました」とは言いそうにないが、「お客さんを待たせました」は問題なく許されることによって、二番目の「待たせ」は違う意味を持つことがわかりました。それは、「私が何か事をして、お客さんを待っている状態に置く」ということですね。


結論
 自動詞の場合に「を」を使い、他動詞の場合に「に」を使うのが大体問題ないでしょう。
 使役者が意志を伝えるだけでなく、行為も与かっている場合は、「~を」「~に~を」の順番で決まます。

ただネイティブでない自分の感じで書いたのですが、皆さんのご意見をお待ちしています。
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Re: Causative form of the verbs with を/に

Postby NileCat » Thu 09.15.2011 8:16 am

Ranja wrote:待たす or 待たせる is not the causative form of 待つ, but itself a transitive verb ....

Incorrect.

The fact that the word 待たせる can be assumed as an independent verb at times does not mean that the verb 待つ doesn’t have a causative form.


yangmuye wrote:... も拝見しましたが、考え方は私とは違いますが、「待たせる」を体系的な派生形として認めないという点においては、私と同感です。

I'm with you, yangmuye.
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Re: Causative form of the verbs with を/に

Postby Ranja » Thu 09.15.2011 9:25 am

NileCat wrote:The fact that the word 待たせる can be assumed as an independent verb at times does not mean that the verb 待つ doesn’t have a causative form.

Then you mean the dictionary is wrong?

大辞林 http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=UTF-8&p=%E5%BE%85%E3%81%9F%E3%81%99&dtype=0&dname=0ss&stype=0&pagenum=1&index=118451100000

And what do you base your theory on?

(Actually, I haven't written that the verb 待つ doesn’t have a causative form, though.)
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Re: Causative form of the verbs with を/に

Postby NileCat » Thu 09.15.2011 10:30 am

@Ranja
What are you talking about? Read my posts and your own post again, please. Should I repeat the same thing?
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Re: Causative form of the verbs with を/に

Postby LordOfTheFlies » Thu 09.15.2011 10:58 am

まあまあ二人とも・・・ 「待つ」には使役形がないかもしれませんが、仮にそうだとしても「待たせる」の使い方に変わりはないから全く問題になりません。だから揉めてもしかたないです。どっちにしても、「待たせる」は明らかに「待つ」に基づいた動詞だということに皆さんは同意できますね。
Last edited by LordOfTheFlies on Thu 09.15.2011 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Causative form of the verbs with を/に

Postby Minarai » Thu 09.15.2011 12:15 pm

I'm sorry that you are arguing for a question of mine :(

Nevertheless, I'll need even more time to get this topic properly now :think:
Oooh it's always the same...c'mon Zenigata!Let me go, I'm just a gentleman!Good bye paparino!

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Re: Causative form of the verbs with を/に

Postby Ranja » Thu 09.15.2011 8:48 pm

I know that the verb 待つ does have a causative form at times.
Perhaps I should have written 'normally used 待たす or 待たせる is not the causative form of 待つ'.
But I'm sure what I wrote was not "incorrect".

By the way, the material writen on the page http://nihon5ch.net/contents/ch5/kosatsu/43.html is just a personal opinion of the writer. Even less reliable than Wikipedia.
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Re: Causative form of the verbs with を/に

Postby NileCat » Thu 09.15.2011 10:34 pm

@Ranja

Ranja wrote:I know that the verb 待つ does have a causative form at times.

But in your first post, while I was explaining about the causative form, you started your post with this:

Ranja wrote:待たす or 待たせる is not the causative form of 待つ

What is the causative form then? That’s what I pointed out.
Now you say:

Ranja wrote:Perhaps I should have written 'normally used 待たす or 待たせる is not the causative form of 待つ'.

Not "perhaps". And your difinition of "normal" is too ambiguous. You HAVE TO write your statement clearly if you want to get in on a serious discussion because we were discussing about the usage here. Otherwise, I assume you as a rude intruder or just a troll. That’s what I think when I read your affirmative posts.

Ranja wrote:But I'm sure what I wrote was not "incorrect".

Unfortunately, that was incorrect. If you don't understand the meaning of being incorrect, please look it up in a dictionary.

Don't take this personally, but I don’t know if your mother language is Japanese as you claim.But If you think you can not properly evaluate the legitimateness of some information on your own, I recommend you not to post your personal opinions about proper grammar issue rather than exclaiming the accuracy of Wikipedia.
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