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二つ同じような漢字を見つけたけど・・・

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二つ同じような漢字を見つけたけど・・・

Postby QuakerBits » Thu 09.20.2012 12:56 pm

Hi hi^^

Image

Came across this kanji reading a book... and after thoroughly searching via skip, radical, IME stroke #, IME handwriting pad thingy, I ended up with this kanji:



Are they the same? They look pretty identical, and the 冊 just seems broken up. Also the definition of 柵 means like a "fence", which matches the context describing a "deep hole in the ground"...

I've came across the same situation before with other kanji (some were even harder to to find), and I came to the conclusion they were the same... but I don't want to keep doing that not knowing if it's really true.. so in cases like this, and if they match the context, I'm guessing you can say they're the same? The one in the text just outdated or something...

sorry if this question seems obvious, I just wanna double check^_^
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Re: 二つ同じような漢字を見つけたけど・・・

Postby micahcowan » Thu 09.20.2012 3:28 pm

Wasn't obvious to me. But it looks like you're correct.

The ja.wiktionary.org pages for 柵 and 栅 list each other as variant forms (異体字).

http://ja.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%A0%85
http://ja.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%9F%B5
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Re: 二つ同じような漢字を見つけたけど・・・

Postby 海賊狩り » Thu 09.20.2012 3:30 pm

My best guess is that it's the same Kanji. This can happen in Japanese. See for example 晩 which stands for "nightfall" and 晚い which is again "late evening", practically the same meaning. Notice how the angle of the vertical stroke at the right radical differs from the first Kanji to the second*. At the first it seems completely vertical and at the second it appears as a continuation of the previous stroke, thus having a slight curve.
Remember always that Kanji's consist of various primitive radicals and they are always rational (a good book I suggest for more info on the matter is "Remembering the Kanji"). That means that if two Kanji's present a slight difference, it's more possible that the one of the two is a second/"better"/more handy edition of the other for the sake of convienience in writing, rather than a different Kanji with a different meaning.

*Actually you can't see it here because propably my language files don't support the Kanji of "osobi", thus replacing it with the more common of the word "ban". Refer here for the Kanji for "osobi" and notice the curve http://jisho.org/kanji/details/%E6%99%9A

EDIT:

After a small search 册 which is the second radical of the initial Kanji has the same meaning with 冊 which the respective radical in your proposed Kanji which means among others "tome". The first Kanji is proclaimed not to generally be in use, so the second one must be a chronically newer and more convinient way to write it.
Please be so kind to correct any errors I make while writing in Japanese.
I'll greatly appreciate it!
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Re: 二つ同じような漢字を見つけたけど・・・

Postby QuakerBits » Thu 09.20.2012 5:04 pm

micahcowan wrote:Wasn't obvious to me. But it looks like you're correct.

The ja.wiktionary.org pages for 柵 and 栅 list each other as variant forms (異体字).

http://ja.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%A0%85
http://ja.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%9F%B5


Thank you for those wikis(: rikaichan won't even pick up 栅, but at least I can copy n paste it around the place alll I want, hehe(: Also thank youuuu for mentioning「異体字」, I know about variants, but didn't know the word for it (never bothered to search, didn't think anything of it lol.. until now), I just now plopped 柵 into bing and put 異体字 after it.. boom, variant :ninja:

海賊狩り wrote:My best guess is that it's the same Kanji.......


Cut the quote short to keep things short :whistle:

Anywho, I will note rikaichan did pick up 晚い but not 栅 :( :( must be really outdated lol. I also just tried writing it on paper and I actually like it over 晩, hehe. Oh and I did do half of RTK, but I don't think I read his intro too thoroughly>_< but thank you very much for taking the time to give me some info on this :bow: !!! I'll keep it all in mind, as I'm diving into books that use a lot of kanji outside the 2000... こころ for example^^ (the kanji in question here though, came from ノルウェイの森)
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Re: 二つ同じような漢字を見つけたけど・・・

Postby jimbreen » Fri 09.21.2012 7:38 am

QuakerBits wrote:
micahcowan wrote:Wasn't obvious to me. But it looks like you're correct.

The ja.wiktionary.org pages for 柵 and 栅 list each other as variant forms (異体字).

http://ja.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%A0%85
http://ja.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%9F%B5


Thank you for those wikis(: rikaichan won't even pick up 栅, but at least I can copy n paste it around the place alll I want,.....


栅 is indeed the same as 柵, but there can be some problems using it in Japanese. It is not in any JIS standards (which is why Rikaichan won't pick it up.). The JIS committee just regard it as a variant "glyph" (i.e. character shape) of 柵. However it's in the Unicode standard as a simplified *Chinese* character, which is why you can see it, cut-and-paste it, etc. I'd avoid it. Use 柵.

Jim
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