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Usage of 'to'?

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Usage of 'to'?

Postby faylar » Fri 10.21.2005 1:56 pm

Hi, I've been following this site pretty closely to start my basic steps towards learning japanese. For practice, I've been trying to translate some anime songs to more or less get the feel of japanese sentence, comparing different fansubs if possible and checking dictionaries. So far there are some which I could not translate (yet, verb forms :P).

Anyway, I have came across the word 'to' many many times. At first, I've ignored it, thinking it to be a particle, but when I checked here, 'to' means 'when/if'. I was confused because nothing in the sentence indicate much about 'when/if' usages. At first I thought it was supposed to be 'o' but I've come across it way too many times.

For example, from the song 'You' from Shuffle!:

'kimi to boku to no aida ni aru no wa'

Are the 'to's here some particle markers or something?

EDIT: In the song I'm translating, I've already came across a couple of 'no wa's. One is in the example above, the other is "utsuru no wa". It looks pretty important.

Arigato gozaimasu :)

thejapanesepage.com rocks!
Last edited by faylar on Fri 10.21.2005 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Usage of 'to'?

Postby KeroGero » Fri 10.21.2005 3:05 pm

It would be helpful if you could post the Japanese text. But let's see... Is it "君と僕との間にあるのは" ?

kimi to boku to no - the "to"s here mean "and" the "no" makes it posessive, so it's "your's and my..."
aida ni aru no wa - the "no" here makes the previous sentence-thing a noun, and the "wa" makes that noun a subject.

So it wold mean something like "As for being with you and me"
Last edited by KeroGero on Fri 10.21.2005 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Usage of 'to'?

Postby InsanityRanch » Fri 10.21.2005 3:31 pm

KeroGero wrote:
It would be helpful if you could post the Japanese text. But let's see... Is it "君と僕との間にあるのは" ?

kimi to boku to no - the "to"s here mean "and" the "no" makes it posessive, so it's "your's and my..."
aida ni aru no wa - the "no" here makes the previous sentence-thing a noun, and the "wa" makes that noun a subject.

So it wold mean something like "As for being with you and me"


What he (or she?) said! <g>

However, I think it means "what is between you and me is..." and I would expect it to continue with a copular construction (何々だ) telling what it is that is between you and me. A French fry. The greatest love in the history of the universe. A connection from countless previous lives. Who knows... the rest of the sentence is missing!

Shira
Last edited by InsanityRanch on Fri 10.21.2005 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Give me a fruitful error any time, full of seeds, bursting with its own corrections. You can keep your sterile truth for yourself." -- Vilfredo Pareto
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RE: Usage of 'to'?

Postby faylar » Fri 10.21.2005 6:02 pm

Thanks alot everyone. How do you type things in japanese? Anyway,the sentence follows with:

'yumetachi ga mazariau noizu no umi'
yume = dream, with 'tachi' that makes it a pural right? 'mazari' seemed to derive from 'mazaru' which means 'mix'. 'au' means 'meet' from what I've seen. In these two words, I'm a little confused as to how is this 'mix of verbs' possible? 'noizu' means noise, 'umi' means 'sea' so it means noise of the sea...

Together I think it means something like: 'the space between you and me is like the dreams meeting and mixing at the sea of noise' or 'is like the sea of noise where dreams meet and mix'. des ne? :P

One part of the lyrics really blew my head because the dictionaries and both fansubs just don't like each other. Is there any program, method or online services which allows you to change romaji into hiragana texts? I don't really like the site's convertor because it is not in text form.

anyway, the part goes like:

'kitto kimi no tame ni naniyori tsuyoku kagayaku kara'

where I think 'kimi no tame' means 'your sake' and 'kitto' I think it means 'surely/definately' so that would translate to something like 'For you, I will definately...'

'naniyori' caught me. I know what 'nani' means 'what' and according to the fansubs 'naniyori' means 'anything' or 'whatever (my guess)'. Dictionary doesn't seem to help much in identifying the 'yori' part.

'tsuyoku' I think comes from the word 'tsuyoi'? Is that right? I'm very very sure it has something to do with 'strong' because of the chinese word I saw under the lyrics, but lessons haven't taught me what if you take out the -i from any adj. and replace it with -ku.

'kagayaku' means shine, identified with the chinese words again...kara means...'from'? hmm, this sentence seemed hard lol -.-;

Thanks again :)

Decrypting japanese is soooo fun :D
Last edited by faylar on Fri 10.21.2005 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Usage of 'to'?

Postby InsanityRanch » Fri 10.21.2005 6:54 pm

faylar wrote:
Thanks alot everyone. How do you type things in japanese? Anyway,the sentence follows with:

'yumetachi ga mazariau noizu no umi'
yume = dream, with 'tachi' that makes it a pural right? 'mazari' seemed to derive from 'mazaru' which means 'mix'. 'au' means 'meet' from what I've seen. In these two words, I'm a little confused as to how is this 'mix of verbs' possible? 'noizu' means noise, 'umi' means 'sea' so it means noise of the sea...

Together I think it means something like: 'the space between you and me is like the dreams meeting and mixing at the sea of noise' or 'is like the sea of noise where dreams meet and mix'. des ne? :P

One part of the lyrics really blew my head because the dictionaries and both fansubs just don't like each other. Is there any program, method or online services which allows you to change romaji into hiragana texts? I don't really like the site's convertor because it is not in text form.

anyway, the part goes like:

'kitto kimi no tame ni naniyori tsuyoku kagayaku kara'

where I think 'kimi no tame' means 'your sake' and 'kitto' I think it means 'surely/definately' so that would translate to something like 'For you, I will definately...'

'naniyori' caught me. I know what 'nani' means 'what' and according to the fansubs 'naniyori' means 'anything' or 'whatever (my guess)'. Dictionary doesn't seem to help much in identifying the 'yori' part.

'tsuyoku' I think comes from the word 'tsuyoi'? Is that right? I'm very very sure it has something to do with 'strong' because of the chinese word I saw under the lyrics, but lessons haven't taught me what if you take out the -i from any adj. and replace it with -ku.

'kagayaku' means shine, identified with the chinese words again...kara means...'from'? hmm, this sentence seemed hard lol -.-;

Thanks again :)

Decrypting japanese is soooo fun :D


kay, first things first. Typing in Japanese. There are a BUNCH of threads on this elsewhere on the site. I personally type into a Japanese word processor (I use the free one, JWPCE) and then cut and paste. The reason I do it that way is I am so familiar with the interface to that program that I don't stumble around as I do with the Windows official interface. But as I say, I'm sure if you look around the site there are a million threads about how to type Japanese moji from any imaginable platform.

'yumetachi ga mazariau noizu no umi'' ... I take to be
夢たちが混ざり会うノイズの海 -- or possibly other kanji for mazariau?
? Your second translation is correct. What is between us is an ocean of noise in which dreams mix and meet.

Verbs are frequently stuck together in Japanese. When they're stuck together like this, with the masu stem of the first verb followed by the appropriate form (for this sentence) of the second, they are often found in the dictionary as a single entry. Not in this case though -- none of the dictionaries I checked had mazariau, so like you I'd just use the meanings of the two constituent verbs.

I'm not sure what you mean about "changing romaji into hiragana" ... normally this is done automatically? I mean if you type into a program that accepts Japanese, if you don't have a special keyboard, you type in romaji and the kana appear as you type? I'm confused!

'kitto kimi no tame ni naniyori tsuyoku kagayaku kara'
=
きっと君のために何より強く輝くから
?

OK, from this I'm not sure of the subject (who or what is going to shine?) but you say it's "I" so I'll go with that.

"Because for your sake I'll definitely shine more than anyone or more than ever" guess

"kara" (at the end) is because.
tsuyoku is strongly -- the ku turns it to an adverb
naniyori means maximally -- yori is used in comparisons

But we don't usually say "shine strongly" in English. Hence "more than ever" or "more than anyone" or "more than I've ever shone before" ... heck, to be less literal, "shine like a supernova" -- the idea is to express superlative shining.

Decrypting japanese is soooo fun :D[/quote]

And you're good at it!

Shira
"Give me a fruitful error any time, full of seeds, bursting with its own corrections. You can keep your sterile truth for yourself." -- Vilfredo Pareto
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RE: Usage of 'to'?

Postby nprz » Fri 10.21.2005 9:21 pm

> 'to' means 'when/if'

It can, yes. When used after a verb (any other cases?) it will mean if/when that verb happens then, the following clause will happen.
Ex: 角を曲がると、銀行があります。(kado wo magaru to, ginkou ga arimasu). When you turn the corner, there's a bank.

Besides there, 'to' can be use as a quote marker, to mean and, or mean with.
Probably other usages of the particle 'to' as well.
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RE: Usage of 'to'?

Postby faylar » Sat 10.22.2005 4:36 am

Thanks a lot for the program, I've downloaded it, let's see how it works :)

What you said above have been very helpful. Just wondering, so if naniyori means maximally, what about minimally?

Okay, one final part of the lyrics that got me confused. This sentence comes after
夢たちが混ざり会うノイズの海 .

"変わらないもの君のなかにだけ息づいてる"
this was according to the subtitles. Firstly, I was wondering if 変わらない
have anything to do with 変わる...it's the negative of each other right because of the ない right? It suddenly struck me while typing it down when I remember from Naruto, the jutsu 'kawarimi' has coming to do with change, so I was just wondering a little.


もの means 'thing' or 'object'? I seem to see this もの quite a few times already. It can be changed to '物' which obviously means object from what I've learnt in chinese, but I'm wondering why didn't the subtitle change? Different meaning? OR perhaps they forget?

In '君のなかにだけ' where '君のなか' means 'your inside' or 'inside you'. 'だけ means...'only'?

This followed by '息づいてるかわ' which I checked in dictionaries mean 'breathing (heavily?)'. But the other fansub wrote '引きずいてる' which means 'dragging along?' The hell -.-; Anyway, from what I've learnt so far I don't remember 引 having much to do with dragging. I think it means to 'attract' so I'm going with that.


So together, '変わらないもの君のなかにだけ(息づいてる) or (引きずいてる)' means...'The unchanging thing inside you...er...is attractive? or ...is breathing heavily?' lol, I need to find the actual japanese letters for this song.
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RE: Usage of 'to'?

Postby InsanityRanch » Sat 10.22.2005 10:16 am

faylar wrote:
Thanks a lot for the program, I've downloaded it, let's see how it works :)

What you said above have been very helpful. Just wondering, so if naniyori means maximally, what about minimally?

Okay, one final part of the lyrics that got me confused. This sentence comes after
夢たちが混ざり会うノイズの海 .

"変わらないもの君のなかにだけ息づいてる"
this was according to the subtitles. Firstly, I was wondering if 変わらない
have anything to do with 変わる...it's the negative of each other right because of the ない right? It suddenly struck me while typing it down when I remember from Naruto, the jutsu 'kawarimi' has coming to do with change, so I was just wondering a little.


もの means 'thing' or 'object'? I seem to see this もの quite a few times already. It can be changed to '物' which obviously means object from what I've learnt in chinese, but I'm wondering why didn't the subtitle change? Different meaning? OR perhaps they forget?

In '君のなかにだけ' where '君のなか' means 'your inside' or 'inside you'. 'だけ means...'only'?

This followed by '息づいてるかわ' which I checked in dictionaries mean 'breathing (heavily?)'. But the other fansub wrote '引きずいてる' which means 'dragging along?' The hell -.-; Anyway, from what I've learnt so far I don't remember 引 having much to do with dragging. I think it means to 'attract' so I'm going with that.


So together, '変わらないもの君のなかにだけ(息づいてる) or (引きずいてる)' means...'The unchanging thing inside you...er...is attractive? or ...is breathing heavily?' lol, I need to find the actual japanese letters for this song.


Good luck with JWPCE. It is one of the tools I depend on every day. And congratulations on figuring out how to produce moji for this site!

"変わらないもの君のなかにだけ息づいてる"
Yes, 変わらない is the negative of 変わる. I won't go into the grammar here. You might look for "The Handbook of Japanese Verbs" by Taeko Kamiya if you want to know this stuff cold.

もの can mean either a thing (spelled with the kanji 物) or person (spelled with the kanji 者) In your example it's in kana, possibly to blur the meaning. (Lyricists like to do that. And this thing is breathing so...)

息づいてる is pronounced いきづいてる. It sounds very much like 引きずいてる (ひきずいてる). Hence the confusion. However, I don't think there IS a verb 引きずく. I mean, I'm not a native speaker or even fully fluent, so I could be wrong. But 1) I couldn't find such a verb and 2) it doesn't make sense, because of the ず. So I think the first reading is correct.

Anyway, 息づいてる covers several distinct ideas in English: To breathe rapidly, to sigh, to gasp. Without context it's hard to guess which is the meaning here.

"Only, something unchanging within you is sighing" (or gasping? panting?) My first guess would be sighing.

HTH

Shira
"Give me a fruitful error any time, full of seeds, bursting with its own corrections. You can keep your sterile truth for yourself." -- Vilfredo Pareto
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RE: Usage of 'to'?

Postby faylar » Mon 10.24.2005 2:07 pm

wierd I'm sure I posted already, but anyway, thanks to everyone for your help :)

ありがとございます? :P
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