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はとがの違い

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はとがの違い

Postby eu01 » Wed 01.30.2013 12:33 pm

今、私の国でポテトチップス人気があります。

I was looking through the workbook for Genki, and I just wanted to know why they used がinstead of は, and if はcould also be used- 'cause that's what I originally thought...

Thanks in advance! :D
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Re: はとがの違い

Postby phreadom » Wed 01.30.2013 9:38 pm

Just to let you know, there was a lot of discussion in the chatroom about this, but none of those folks seems to feel like actually responding to this. :/

Not sure if they were able to come to a consensus, and they told me not to just copy/paste the debate here. :P
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Re: はとがの違い

Postby Mike Cash » Wed 01.30.2013 10:03 pm

Would you still ask if there were a は after the で ?
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Re: はとがの違い

Postby SomeCallMeChris » Wed 01.30.2013 11:33 pm

I think it's a weird sentence, and that while understanding は and が is important, this isn't the sentence to do it with. It's probably grammatically correct to exchange the が for a は, but I think then that you're implying a contrast with some other food that isn't popular, so depending on the context of the sentence you might not be able to do so. I also wonder why it isn't ’人気です' instead of '人気があります'. The double-が is a little awkward sounding to me.
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Re: はとがの違い

Postby phreadom » Thu 01.31.2013 12:21 am

Well, since SomeCallMeChris touched on one of the points the discussion in the chat did... I'm just going to copy/paste the whole thing here and they can complain about it if they want. ;) haha

phreadom: http://thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewto ... t=#p175188
phreadom: I don't know the answer to this. :F
wakaiotona: because は is usually used with ない
wakaiotona: negatory forms more specifically
Daniel993: That sentence doesn't make sense to me haha. >Phreadom
Mattias: That sounds so odd
Mattias: ポテトチップスが人気があります shouldn't it be: 人気です
Daniel993: ^ What Mattias said.
Mattias: or, ポテトチップスに人気があります
wakaiotona: http://www.google.com.sg/#hl=en&tbo=d&s ... 40&bih=775
wakaiotona: 人気があります is a common phrase
Mattias: I still think it sounds way odd saying が twice like that :P
Mattias: even if it's a phrase
Daniel993: Definitely.
Daniel993: He doesn't have a topic either/
Joey 鷹 Vega: so I think it would be an indirect object?
Daniel993: Those sentences makes sense, ダイエットは人気があります souds fine.
Daniel993: sounds*
Mattias: http://eow.alc.co.jp/search?q=%e4%ba%ba ... %8b&ref=sa
Mattias: Seems it's に
Mattias: which should be used
Mattias: or マティアス(人)が人気がある
Daniel993: I was just about to point out that Alc also had that が人気がある example. :P
Daniel993: Hmm it probably works because 人気がある is phrase.
wakaiotona: に seems to be a different usage
wakaiotona: popular AMONG
Mattias: maybe
wakaiotona: it is :)
Mattias: but if you add が in front of the search there, then trying に you'll see が is almost never used :P
wakaiotona: 10代の若者に人気がある be popular with teenagers
***Mattias never hear it used like that much either
Mattias: If I ever have heard it spoken with が
Daniel993: Wakai is right, Alc even says ~に人気がある is a phrase "be popular with..."
wakaiotona: http://www.google.com.sg/#hl=en&tbo=d&s ... 40&bih=775
wakaiotona: plenty of results bro :p
Mattias: Google is not the answer
wakaiotona: google is better than ignorance
wakaiotona: :)
Mattias: It'll take each character in your search string and find matches for each, and as you can see, almost no hits uses が
Daniel993: Maybe if someone said どっちが人気があるか? and you answered with ポテトチップスが人気があるんだ then it sounds okay I guess.
wakaiotona: インターネット上でどのサイトが人気があるかをひと目で確認できるサービス「The Internet map」
wakaiotona: clear example~
Mattias: I have asked on 2ch irc now
Mattias: seeing what a native speaker will have to say about this
Joey 鷹 Vega: hmm.... well he is talking about the chips that is popular (with) in his country
Mattias: If someone is awake right now :P
Mattias: First thing someone said: <Shadoukun> shouldn't it be 人気になります
wakaiotona: first thing seems wrong
wakaiotona: clearly 2chan irc isn't the best place to ask
Mattias: Ok, he was wrong :)
Daniel993: 人気 is far more noun-like than 有名 etc. I think, in fact it probably means "air of popularity," more so than "popular" itself, so I guess that's why it makes sense to use it like that.
Mattias: <@Lumpio-@2ch> Mattias: I dunno I'd use は人気がある
Mattias: Lumpio is fluent in Japanese, I trust him
Mattias: :P
wakaiotona: thats just plain form instead of -masu form
wakaiotona: lol
Mattias: no, it's は instead of が
Mattias: ignore the masu form
wakaiotona: did he say it was wrong? :p
Daniel993: He said は人気がある sounds more correct that が・・・
Daniel993: than*
Mattias: Shadoukun took back what he said with 人気になります he wrote too fast :P
Mattias: Lumpio feels like I do, が there is strange and should be something else, like は
Daniel993: Which is what I thought too since he doesn't seem like he has a topic, but I guess the topic would be 私の国では
wakaiotona: niha
Daniel993: Yeah actually, that^
Mattias: Anyways, it sounds very unnatural using が
Daniel993: Hmm, I don't think so anymore.
Mattias: Dunno, might be because I've never heard a Japanese person use が with this before
wakaiotona: http://www.google.com.sg/#q=%22%E3%81%8 ... 40&bih=738
wakaiotona: this is exact term search
wakaiotona: enough hits for u????
Daniel993: Lol
wakaiotona: some people are just bad losers :p
phreadom: :P
Daniel993: Check what Alc says, I think I was right: http://eow.alc.co.jp/search?q=%E4%BA%BA%E6%B0%97 人気 is far more of a noun.
wakaiotona: it IS a noun :p
wakaiotona: ninki ga aru is a phrase
Daniel993: Yeah I agree with you, I can definitely see why it's used like that. :)
Daniel993: In fact, 人気のある should be just as frequently used then.
wakaiotona: yup
Daniel993: Great. :) 勉強になったぁぁ
Daniel993: I think the answer is because potato chips is the subject of the sentence, and the topic is "in my country..." 人気 isn't the subject because even though it's marked with が because 人気がある is a phrase.
wakaiotona: ga/ha questions are a dead horse anyway
wakaiotona: and don't even matter much to warrant a debate
wakaiotona: cuz alot of the questions that are asked about, neither are wrong
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Re: はとがの違い

Postby Mike Cash » Thu 01.31.2013 3:32 am

Good Lord, no wonder this place died.
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Re: はとがの違い

Postby Ongakuka » Thu 01.31.2013 4:15 am

人気だ can sound unnatural because what it means is ポテトチップスは人の気(入り)がある as oppose to ポテトチップスは人の気である。

As a result, you get weird sentence like the one in the Genki book. I agree that if a は has to go anywhere, it should go after the で. In fact I would go as far to say there should be a は after で but that it was omitted for the sake of sounding casual. Thus, the topic of the sentence is 'food in my country' and が is used to highlight 'potato chips' as being popular among anything else that might fit into that topic.
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Re: はとがの違い

Postby yukki » Fri 02.01.2013 3:19 am

We use 「は」 and 「が」according to its question or conversation.

If you want to emphasize "Potato chips" you would use 「が」.
Eg1: 「あなたの国では、どんな食べ物が人気がありますか。」What is the most popular food in your country these days?"
「今、私の国でポテトチップスが人気があります。」Potato chips are.

When the point of your answer/opinion is other than "potato chips", you would use 「は」.
Eg2:「わたしの国では、ポテトチップスはあまり人気ないわ。」Not many people like potato chips in my country.
   「そうなんですか。わたしの国ではポテトチップスは人気がありますよ。」Is that so? In my coutry, potato chips are very popular. (this person wants to emphasize "in my country")

「が」 sounds like exclusive to that thing or person ( the word before "ga")
Eg3: 「おにぎり作ったけど、誰か食べますか。」I made some onigiri, who wants some?
   「私が食べます!」-It sounds like this person wants them all to himself."I am the one have them (all)!"
   「私は食べますよ。」-It sounds like this person will have some among others."I'll have some."

Using right particles must be really confusing! I hope this helped a bit. Good luck!
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Re: はとがの違い

Postby Cheesecake » Fri 02.01.2013 5:06 pm

Yukkiさん、TJPのフォーラムへようこそ! ^_^


yukki wrote:Using right particles must be really confusing!

ええ、そうですね!(;^_^A


yukki wrote:I hope this helped a bit.

とても役に立っていると思います。ありがとうございました! :bow:
私の日本語はいいかどうかいつも迷ってるので、間違いがあれば添削をお願いします!m(_ _)m
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Re: はとがの違い

Postby yukki » Sun 02.03.2013 1:28 am

Cheesecakeさん、コメントありがとうございました。
Cheesecakeさんの、日本語のコメント見てみますね。

みなさん、あいさつがあとになってすいません。はじめまして、よろしくお願いします。
私は、日本語を教える教材をネットで探している途中で、このサイトにたどり着きました。このトピックにを読んで、
「あ、ちょっと助けれるかも?」と思って、ジョインしました。 ここでは、日本語でコメントしたほうがいいですか、それとも英語がいいですか?
Please excuse me for not to greet to first when I post a comment! Minasan Yoroshiku ne.
Should I use Japanese or English to comment in the forum?
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Re: はとがの違い

Postby Ongakuka » Sun 02.03.2013 3:00 am

Yukkiさん、はじめまして :D TJPへようこそ!

われわれのコミュニティーには、日本語を教えてくれるネイティブの日本人の方が少ないと思います。日本人がいらっしゃると、みんな喜びます。ぜひ教えてください。 :pray:

ご質問に関しては、個人的な意見を言っちゃいますと、日本語で日本語の使い方が分かるような例文を書いていただいて、短くてもいいのでそれを英語の説明で支えていただけると、とてもありがたいです。皆も日本語が通じるというわけではないので英語も使ったほうがいいと思います。

Please make yourself at home ^_^ there are many people from all over the world that use TJP, so you can make many interesting friends.
よろしくお願いします☆
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Re: はとがの違い

Postby Cheesecake » Sun 02.03.2013 9:36 pm

Yukkiさん、私もOngakukaさんに同感です。

ご質問に関して、個人的には日本語だけの方がいいと思いますが、一方ではほとんどの人が英語の方を好むかもしれないだろう。このため、Ongakukaさんの提案がいいでしょうね。

ジョインしてくれたこと、ありがとう!♪
私の日本語はいいかどうかいつも迷ってるので、間違いがあれば添削をお願いします!m(_ _)m
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