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永遠の初心者 vs 永遠初心者

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永遠の初心者 vs 永遠初心者

Postby phreadom » Mon 04.22.2013 7:22 pm

We were discussing this in the chat, and LordOfTheFlies was saying that it sounds much better with the の in there, but it seems to me that it makes more sense with 永遠 acting as an adjective? :think:

I don't understand how the の sounds more natural and makes more sense. :sweatdrop:

Can anyone give a good explanation for what's happening here? :colonthree:
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Re: 永遠の初心者 vs 永遠初心者

Postby LordOfTheFlies » Mon 04.22.2013 7:24 pm

phreadom wrote:We were discussing this in the chat, and LordOfTheFlies was saying that it sounds much better with the の in there, but it seems to me that it makes more sense with 永遠 acting as an adjective? :think:

It is acting as an adjective with the の, that's the reason it's there. Particles can sometimes be ommitted in compound words, but this isn't one of those cases. It just sounds awkward an unnatural without the の in my opinion.
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Re: 永遠の初心者 vs 永遠初心者

Postby Ranja » Mon 04.22.2013 9:52 pm

LordOfTheFliesさんに一票。I agree with LordOfTheFlies. :)
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Re: 永遠の初心者 vs 永遠初心者

Postby Shiroisan » Mon 04.22.2013 10:09 pm

LordOfTheFlies wrote:
phreadom wrote:We were discussing this in the chat, and LordOfTheFlies was saying that it sounds much better with the の in there, but it seems to me that it makes more sense with 永遠 acting as an adjective? :think:

It is acting as an adjective with the の, that's the reason it's there. Particles can sometimes be ommitted in compound words, but this isn't one of those cases. It just sounds awkward an unnatural without the の in my opinion.


Are such compound words where omitting the の is natural pre-established or is it possible to create your own?
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Re: 永遠の初心者 vs 永遠初心者

Postby SomeCallMeChris » Mon 04.22.2013 10:59 pm

Shiroisan wrote:Are such compound words where omitting the の is natural pre-established or is it possible to create your own?


It's probably best for a foreign speaker to simply treat them as pre-established, but if you pay close attention to usage you can identify words which are often and freely used as prefixes or suffixes or both and figure out at least some of what are acceptable compounds to create on the fly.

Seems like a waste of effort to actively study such a thing though, at least with word creation in mind. I pay attention to such things so that I can decompose long compounds more quickly in my head, and if I need to look up part of it, look up the right part instead of guessing at a bunch of ways to divide the string of kanji up.
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Re: 永遠の初心者 vs 永遠初心者

Postby phreadom » Mon 04.22.2013 11:46 pm

http://japanese.stackexchange.com/quest ... /2771#2771

It seems like that link is summing up my particular issue fairly well... it even uses 永遠の~ in one of its examples. :mrgreen:

Basically it's just another attribute (of many) of the の particle that I wasn't familiar with.

Thanks for the replies everyone! :bow:
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