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(N2) Can't understand 次第 explanation

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(N2) Can't understand 次第 explanation

Postby Mür » Tue 04.23.2013 11:43 am

Hi all, it's been a really long time since I posted last time.

I am currently studying for N2 with Shin Kanzen Master books but I have come across an explanation I can't understand.

In the 文法 book, unit 3, piece 3 there is ~次第. I understand the grammar itself, but there is this explanation I can't translate because it's so messed:
時間が来れば当然そうなるとわかっていることが実現した瞬間を表す言葉につく

I understand the words and the bits of sentence, but I can't put it together.

Could someone tell me in English what is it trying to say? Thank you :)
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Re: (N2) Can't understand 次第 explanation

Postby SomeCallMeChris » Tue 04.23.2013 1:09 pm

時間が来れば当然そうなるとわかっていることが実現した瞬間を表す言葉につく

Mmm... maybe...
"It is attached to the word that signifies that moment that when it occurs, it is understood what naturally follows."

I'm pretty sure it's referring to definition 5 here http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=UTF- ... x=01814700

It's saying that 次第 is attached to a word. That word indicates the very moment something happens.
The 'something' that happens is defined by the こと phrase.
"時間が来れば当然そうなるとわかっている" -> "If and when that time comes, it's understood that it naturally follows."

I don't have the book so I don't have the actual context, but it feels like there's more than one sentence in this definition, or else this definition is building on the definitions for the other usages. It's certainly abrupt and terse and full of clauses that come across as undefined 'it' or 'that'.
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Re: (N2) Can't understand 次第 explanation

Postby Mür » Tue 04.23.2013 1:47 pm

Thank you, it might have clarified something. However, there is no other context. There are the example sentences and then this comes, with no other context. After it. there is another explanation that has nothing to do with this one, about the types of sentences that come after "shidai".

I somewhat understood the sentence, but it is so full of relatives grouped to the "koto" that it was almost impossible to understand.

It is indeed the meaning of "as soon as", the grammar point is only about this sense.

Also, I don't understand whan meaning can come out of わかっていることが実現した. Its sounds repetitive to me. I could manage to understand this bit "時間が来れば当然そうなるとわかっている", but I don't understand how to put it with 実現した. So, the part I have problems with is relating わかっていること with 実現した.

It is so messy :(
Mür
 
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Re: (N2) Can't understand 次第 explanation

Postby Shiroisan » Tue 04.23.2013 5:25 pm

damn this is why I just had to give up on 完全マスター、I wanted a clearer understanding of the grammar... That being said if you're able to manage it I'm sure it's better for you in the long wrong to learn this way.
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Re: (N2) Can't understand 次第 explanation

Postby Mür » Tue 04.23.2013 6:45 pm

Shiroisan wrote:damn this is why I just had to give up on 完全マスター、I wanted a clearer understanding of the grammar... That being said if you're able to manage it I'm sure it's better for you in the long wrong to learn this way.


I'm definitely not giving up, I already have the N2 grammar explanations from my translation degree plus the Japanese Grammar Dictionaries by Japan Times. I do understand the grammar, it's just this sentence that gives an extra nuance that is so messy I can't understand what it is saying.
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Re: (N2) Can't understand 次第 explanation

Postby Shiroisan » Wed 04.24.2013 1:17 am

Hoo translation? I sent you a pm!
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Re: (N2) Can't understand 次第 explanation

Postby Ongakuka » Thu 04.25.2013 5:51 am

Well... here's my understanding of it

現実した瞬間を表す言葉 > For example 「営業開始」 (the opening of service/business hours)

時間が来れば、当然そうなる(I.e 営業が始まる)と分かっている。 I think it's awkwardly phrased too.

「次第」がその言葉に付く。 = 営業開始次第 = upon/depending on start of business/service hours

みたいな感じかな??
なぜなら、おまえは・・・・・・人形だ
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