Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

View topic - Help with grammatical correctness of sentences...

Help with grammatical correctness of sentences...

Have a Question about some Grammar point? Share it with the world!

Help with grammatical correctness of sentences...

Postby b4d0m3n » Mon 11.07.2005 7:47 am

Hello there. Are the following sentences correct in what they are attempting to convey? Any suggestions?

あの さる の うしろ 猫 です。

That monkey over there is behind a cat.

私の かにのけ ちゃいろ です。

My hair is brown.

あなたの くつ あか ですか?

Are your shoes red?

いいえ。 私の くつ くろ です!

No. My shoes are black!
b4d0m3n
 
Posts: 349
Joined: Sun 09.11.2005 8:28 am

RE: Help with grammatical correctness of sentences...

Postby Infidel » Mon 11.07.2005 8:00 am

particles..

あのさる猫のうしろです。

particles and spelling.

私の かのけ ちゃいろ です。

boss is here. cant finish sorry.
User avatar
Infidel
 
Posts: 3093
Joined: Sun 10.09.2005 1:12 am
Native language: 英語

RE: Help with grammatical correctness of sentences...

Postby b4d0m3n » Mon 11.07.2005 9:14 am

ishnar wrote:
particles..

あのさる猫のうしろです。

particles and spelling.

私の かのけ ちゃいろ です。

boss is here. cant finish sorry.


Crudmonkey! :) The spelling was a typo, but I guess I have no excuse for the lack of particles. What was I thinking??? Not much, I guess. ;) What does the 'ni' in the first sentence indicate?
b4d0m3n
 
Posts: 349
Joined: Sun 09.11.2005 8:28 am

RE: Help with grammatical correctness of sentences...

Postby b4d0m3n » Mon 11.07.2005 9:39 am

Would then the following be correct?

あなたの くつ あか ですか?

Are your shoes red?

いいえ。 私の くつ くろ です!

No. My shoes are black!

Man, Japanese is damn confusing.
b4d0m3n
 
Posts: 349
Joined: Sun 09.11.2005 8:28 am

RE: Help with grammatical correctness of sentences...

Postby mandolin » Mon 11.07.2005 11:28 am

OK, would this be a case of the color being considered a noun? I have a particularly difficult time with this, because my western brain tells me that colors are always adjectives, since nouns are supposed to be person, place, or thing.

But if they were adjectives here, they'd need the -i, wouldn't they?

I agree, Japanese is confusing sometimes.

EDIT:

In relation to the the actual original post...

あの さる の うしろ 猫 です。
vs
あのさるは猫のうしろにです。


The 'ni' serves.. um.. how to explain it.. hah.

OK, it equates to 'at that place'. Often refers to the place where action happens, but there doesn't always have to BE physical action. It's just a designation of a specific physical location.

In this case, behind the cat (or more literally, the cat's behind.. hehe) is the specific place where the monkey is. (that's why she changed 'ushiro neko' to 'neko no ushiro')

If translated literally, the sentence in english becomes:

that monkey (subj marker) cat's behind at that place is.

slightly better (read.. half literal? hehe) english:

that monkey is at the cat's behind.

I bet someone else comes along and explains it clearly in like 6 words or less. But I hope that helped with 'ni'. :)
Last edited by mandolin on Mon 11.07.2005 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
mandolin
 
Posts: 497
Joined: Mon 06.20.2005 3:44 am

RE: Help with grammatical correctness of sentences...

Postby Taro » Mon 11.07.2005 12:04 pm

I'll throw in my 2 cents:

"That monkey over there is behind a cat."
あの猿は猫の後ろにあります/います。
> Since we're talking about location here, I would use either arimasu or imasu, depending on whether you consider the monkey to be a living being or object ... not always clear in Japanese

"Are your shoes red?"
君/あなたの靴は赤いですか?
> I would use the adjective aka-i here because it seems more natural. The noun version (aka) is usually used in contexts like: その色は?赤です。or 赤の車 as an alternate for 赤い車 (If I'm not mistaken)
Last edited by Taro on Mon 11.07.2005 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[center]愛のために頑張っている[/center]
Taro
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon 11.07.2005 11:04 am

RE: Help with grammatical correctness of sentences...

Postby AJBryant » Mon 11.07.2005 1:30 pm

あのさるは猫のうしろにです。


うしろにデス!?!?!?!
>boggle<
:o
User avatar
AJBryant
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5313
Joined: Sun 10.09.2005 11:29 am
Location: Indiana
Native language: English
Gender: Male

RE: Help with grammatical correctness of sentences...

Postby mandolin » Mon 11.07.2005 6:11 pm

EDIT: removal of a stupid post made in anger. shitsurei shimashita, Tony-san.
Last edited by mandolin on Tue 11.08.2005 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
mandolin
 
Posts: 497
Joined: Mon 06.20.2005 3:44 am

RE: Help with grammatical correctness of sentences...

Postby Infidel » Mon 11.07.2005 7:47 pm

Tony was right. I have a bad habit of assuming the person I'm correcting is mostly right and sometimes compound the error. I was having trouble wrapping my mind around the desu but gave it no thought since the particle issue was more obvious I focused on that.

I did a big DOH! when Taro posted. Tony's comment just implied that I should know better, and I should have. He wasn't insulting me at all. I've seen Tony insult people and that wasn't it. Tony also knows that I know him from another forum and won't got offended by a chide, especially, when I deserve it, although his tone is a bit familiar for a new forum where people don't really know him yet.
User avatar
Infidel
 
Posts: 3093
Joined: Sun 10.09.2005 1:12 am
Native language: 英語

RE: Help with grammatical correctness of sentences...

Postby b4d0m3n » Mon 11.07.2005 8:05 pm

Alright. Well, to start with, thanks everyone. I'll take this post by post.

mandolin: Right. I understand now, I think. The 'ni' particle is a locational indicator. Cool. Makes sense.

Taro: Could you explain a little more? I'm currently not familiar with 'arimasu' or 'imasu'. Are they contextual replacements for 'desu'? What is the difference between 'aka' and 'aka-i'? Can a noun be an adjective? I guess so. You used a tad more kanji than I am familiar with. Care to give me a hiragana version of your examples?

Everyone else: Chill. :D I'm sure my poor grammar and spelling isn't THAT rage-inducing. ;)
b4d0m3n
 
Posts: 349
Joined: Sun 09.11.2005 8:28 am

RE: Help with grammatical correctness of sentences...

Postby KeroGero » Mon 11.07.2005 8:35 pm

「いる/います」 is used when talking about animate objects, like living breathing creatures. So, when talking about someone, you would use "iru".

「ある/あります」 is used for inanimate objects. Trees and plants are generally considered inanimate, though, even if they are alive. A rock would use "aru". Unless, say, that rock was given a personality, and made into a character, then I s'pose it would use "iru" :P

(The longer 「います」 and 「あります」 forms are more formal, and mean the same things)
★★★★★
User avatar
KeroGero
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon 09.26.2005 10:57 pm

RE: Help with grammatical correctness of sentences...

Postby b4d0m3n » Mon 11.07.2005 8:40 pm

KeroGero wrote:
「いる/います」 is used when talking about animate objects, like living breathing creatures. So, when talking about someone, you would use "iru".

「ある/あります」 is used for inanimate objects. Trees and plants are generally considered inanimate, though, even if they are alive. A rock would use "aru". Unless, say, that rock was given a personality, and made into a character, then I s'pose it would use "iru" :P

(The longer 「います」 and 「あります」 forms are more formal, and mean the same things)


Alrighty, but what do they actually mean? I mean, I understand now the usage in different contexts, but are they just 'to be'?
Last edited by b4d0m3n on Mon 11.07.2005 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
b4d0m3n
 
Posts: 349
Joined: Sun 09.11.2005 8:28 am

RE: Help with grammatical correctness of sentences...

Postby nprz » Mon 11.07.2005 8:46 pm

Aka is the noun form of Akai which is an i-adj. You can change a noun into an adjective by adding teki 的 but I think someone learning should be cautious when doing this. You can make a lot of adjectives into nouns by dropping the 'i' in an i-adj or just using it as a noun for na-adj.

Arimasu (aru) and Imasu (iru) are verbs that mean 'to exist'. Aru is used for inanimate things while Iru is used for animate things. The confusing part of this is whether things like a taxi is animate or not? Or what about an elevator? I think it even confuses Japanese sometimes.

So its translation might end up as "there is/are" when used in a sentence.
Last edited by nprz on Mon 11.07.2005 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
nprz
 
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun 10.09.2005 3:09 pm

RE: Help with grammatical correctness of sentences...

Postby Harisenbon » Mon 11.07.2005 9:41 pm

nprz wrote:
Arimasu (aru) and Imasu (iru) are verbs that mean 'to exist'. Aru is used for inanimate things while Iru is used for animate things. The confusing part of this is whether things like a taxi is animate or not? Or what about an elevator? I think it even confuses Japanese sometimes.


I don't think the difference is very confusing for Japanese, in most cases. Some things such as ばい菌 (viruses) can get a bit sticky, but for common usage the difference between ある and いる is quite clear.

Breathing - いる
Not breathing - ある

Thus, Taxis, robots, elevators, etc are all ある

こうえんに ねこが いる。
There is a cat in the park

こうえんに タクシーが ある。
There is a taxi in the park.

こうえんに きが ある。
There is a tree in the park.
Want to learn Japanese the right way? How about for free?
Ippatsu // Japanesetesting.com
User avatar
Harisenbon
 
Posts: 2964
Joined: Tue 06.14.2005 3:24 am
Location: Gifu, Japan
Native language: (poor) English

RE: Help with grammatical correctness of sentences...

Postby InsanityRanch » Tue 11.08.2005 12:15 am

b4d0m3n wrote:
Hello there. Are the following sentences correct in what they are attempting to convey? Any suggestions?

あの さる の うしろ 猫 です。

That monkey over there is behind a cat.

私の かにのけ ちゃいろ です。

My hair is brown.

あなたの くつ あか ですか?

Are your shoes red?

いいえ。 私の くつ くろ です!

No. My shoes are black!


I don't think anyone has actually corrected all the sentences yet?
(Of course now *I* will mess up <g>)

That monkey over there is behind a cat.
あの さる は 猫 の うしろ に います。
Think that's been explained.

The second one is ok except for かみのけ rather than かにのけ. But can anyone tell me why it is that 茶色 becomes 茶色の, 灰色 becomes 灰色の, but 黄色 becomes 黄色い?

Another sentence pattern you might want to learn is:
私 は ちゃいろ の かみけ が あります。
I have brown hair.

Are your shoes red?
あなた の くつ は あかい です か
OK, maybe I'm wrong, but あかい sounds more natural to me than あか.

Also, this is one of those beginner's sentences that I hate, since it leads to very unnatural sounding Japanese. When would you ask someone "Are your shoes red?" In most cases, in natural Japanese, you wouldn't have to spell out all the parts of this sentence! But without knowing the context it is impossible to tell WHICH parts of the sentence to leave out.

No. My shoes are black!
いいえ、くろい です!

If this is the answer to the question above, you would NEVER specify "my shoes" -- that is known from context.

Shira
"Give me a fruitful error any time, full of seeds, bursting with its own corrections. You can keep your sterile truth for yourself." -- Vilfredo Pareto
InsanityRanch
 
Posts: 227
Joined: Tue 04.19.2005 2:17 pm

Next

Return to Grammar Questions and Problems

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests