Do I have this right?

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b4d0m3n
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Do I have this right?

Post by b4d0m3n » Mon 12.19.2005 4:07 am

Gakusei desu.
(I) am a student.

Gakusei deshita.
(I) was a student.

Gakusei dewa arimasen.
(I) am not a student.

Sorry about the lack of kana, I'm using a new computer and I haven't had time to calibrate it yet.

Schattenjedi

RE: Do I have this right?

Post by Schattenjedi » Mon 12.19.2005 6:13 am

Yes, it's all correct.

b4d0m3n
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RE: Do I have this right?

Post by b4d0m3n » Mon 12.19.2005 8:41 am

Lovely. Thanks. :D

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RE: Do I have this right?

Post by ryuubu » Tue 12.20.2005 12:28 pm

To seem a lot more natural, in the last sentence, you can substitute dewa arimasen for ja nai desu.

Dewa becomes ja a lot, and nai is a less polite way to say arimasen. Desu finishes it off.

In this way you can also mix it up, by saying

Gakusei ja arimasen.

or

Gakusei deha nai desu.

Have fun.

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RE: Do I have this right?

Post by AJBryant » Tue 12.20.2005 4:00 pm

Dewa becomes ja a lot, and nai is a less polite way to say arimasen. Desu finishes it off.
Which, despite the fact that you may hear it often, is NOT proper grammar. If you're at the politeness level to use "desu" you should say "arimasen" and be done with it. (Japanese teachers still fight over this one.)

Tony

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Harisenbon
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RE: Do I have this right?

Post by Harisenbon » Tue 12.20.2005 8:11 pm

AJBryant wrote:
Dewa becomes ja a lot, and nai is a less polite way to say arimasen. Desu finishes it off.
Which, despite the fact that you may hear it often, is NOT proper grammar.
Although ないです is not correct grammar, I was under the impression that ないんです is, and that is what is often misheard by foreigners as ないです。

I could be wrong on that though.
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zengargoyle
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RE: Do I have this right?

Post by zengargoyle » Tue 12.20.2005 9:05 pm

Harisenbon wrote:

Although ないです is not correct grammar, I was under the impression that ないんです is, and that is what is often misheard by foreigners as ないです。

I could be wrong on that though.
one of my sources confirms this, PL2 〜ない before んです is the way to go and PL3 〜ません before ん/の です is "feminine". it goes further to say that 〜ないんですか is often the most direct way to ask a negative question and not have it be misundertood as an invitation (食べませんか).

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RE: Do I have this right?

Post by Harisenbon » Wed 12.21.2005 1:46 am

zengargoyle wrote:
one of my sources confirms this, PL2 〜ない before んです is the way to go and PL3 〜ません before ん/の です is "feminine". it goes further to say that 〜ないんですか is often the most direct way to ask a negative question and not have it be misundertood as an invitation (食べませんか).
Sorry, I'm not 100% sure on what you're saying here, so forgive me if I get something wrong. I'm also not quite sure what PL2 and PL3 are. Are you referring to verb types in this?

You shouldn't have しません and ん・のです. The のです is a phrase that takes makes a verb into a noun phrase (using の) and then adding です to make it more polite. It is a natural way to cover up when you slip up with politeness. However, it can only be used with plain form verbs (in the same way that 食べたもの is correct and たべましたもの is not)
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zengargoyle
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RE: Do I have this right?

Post by zengargoyle » Wed 12.21.2005 4:03 am

Harisenbon wrote:
Sorry, I'm not 100% sure on what you're saying here, so forgive me if I get something wrong. I'm also not quite sure what PL2 and PL3 are. Are you referring to verb types in this?

You shouldn't have しません and ん・のです. The のです is a phrase that takes makes a verb into a noun phrase (using の) and then adding です to make it more polite. It is a natural way to cover up when you slip up with politeness. However, it can only be used with plain form verbs (in the same way that 食べたもの is correct and たべましたもの is not)
let's see if i can explain without digging myself further into a hole. :o

PL - Politeness Level
PL1 - rough guy/yakuza type speech.
PL2 - regular dictionary form type speech.
PL3 - more polite speech, -masu forms.
PL4 - honorifics and the like.

there's a chapter in the book on Explanatory の..

~の だ/です
"It's that ~" or "The situation/explanation is that ~"

(Scholar explaining why a cat is making a weird face..)
くさい のです。
is smelly (explan.)
It's that [something] is smelly.
Something stinks.

the next section goes on to explain that の -> ん is the common contraction
and that actually の だ/です sounds a bit stilted and academic (maybe like
desu vs de aru??). other particles can follow.

(Guy asks landlady why she's collecting so much stuff..)
近所に配るんだよ。
I'm going to share it with the neighbors.

the next section states that の/ん, だ/です can be added to any complete
sentence but the preceeding part is normaly PL2 (verb/adj). there is a change
for noun-type sentences, the final だ/です->な.

独身です。
I'm single.

独身なんです。
It's that i'm single.

then the rest of the chapter deals with stuff like omitting だ, making
questions with か and softer questions without か and other stuff like that.

later on in the book in the Negative Verbs chapter there's this..

(negative sentence) 〜の, 〜の だ/です, 〜ん だ/です
"It's that he isn't/doesn't/won't ~" or "The situation/explanation is that she
isn't/doesn't/won't ~"
Most typicallly, the PL2 -nai form is used before the extension, and
the politeness of the sentence is determined by the form the extension itself takes, but the polite -masen + no is also heard in PL3 feminine speach.
A negative question that ends in ~ no?, ~ no ka? or ~ n desu ka? is asking for an explanation regarding the situation ("Is it that she isn't/doesn't/won't ~?" ) and is never an invitationor suggestion.
防ぐ方法はないんですか?
Isn't there some way to prevent it?

so, to summarize... i may have taken '-masen no?' a step to far and thought
it could be '-masen no/n da/desu (ka?)'. but i think i get your point about
verb->noun phrase and covering up slips. i sorta have a suspicion that the
whole 'no desu' thing works the same way. even the simple expanatory 'no' has
a feeling of turning a sentence into a noun-thing, sorta like you can't
explain something with an action statement but have to turn it into a
noun-thing and posit that instead... hope that's not too weird sounding. :D

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RE: Do I have this right?

Post by coco » Wed 12.21.2005 9:48 am

PL1 - rough guy/yakuza type speech.
:D
(Scholar explaining why a cat is making a weird face..)
くさい のです。
:D 笑いが止まらなかった。←PL2
(Guy asks landlady why she's collecting so much stuff..)
近所に配るんだよ。
I'm going to share it with the neighbors.
I wonder if it's the landlady's answer ?
If so lower than PL 2 ...although it depends on the relationship between the guy and her...

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zengargoyle
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RE: Do I have this right?

Post by zengargoyle » Wed 12.21.2005 11:29 pm

coco wrote:
(Guy asks landlady why she's collecting so much stuff..)
近所に配るんだよ。
I'm going to share it with the neighbors.
I wonder if it's the landlady's answer ?
If so lower than PL 2 ...although it depends on the relationship between the guy and her...
「ホワッツ マイケル」が何時も面白可笑しい。 :D

the landlady is from 大東京ビンボー生活マニュアル and コースケ is always helping her out. in the Commands chapter she says: 「へチマの水とり手伝え!!」 and there's a note: "The landlady seldom wastes politeness on Kosuke." :D

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RE: Do I have this right?

Post by coco » Thu 12.22.2005 3:02 am

zengargoyle wrote:
"The landlady seldom wastes politeness on Kosuke." :D
:D
『大東京ビンボー生活マニュアル』と 『ホワッツマイケル』でしたか。
なるほどね〜。
If the landlady was 響子さん of The めぞん一刻, I wondered what happened to her.
It is very difficult to explain politeness. Because it depends speakers age, sex, dialect, relation with audience etc. etc.
Last edited by coco on Sat 12.24.2005 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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