Pronounciation Changes

[h3lladvocate]

I was looking through a vocab list and i cam across this. It first says to make a number stand for minutes, add 分(fun) and im like ok. But when it gives some examples, i got lost.. Such as these:
三分 - should be sanfun but it says its sampun
六分 - should be rokufun but it says its roppun
二助ｪ - should be nijuufun but it says its nijuppun

so A. why is that?, B. What are the rules for changing it and C. What, if there are any, any other changes in pronunciation and what are the rules for them?

[mandolin]

It's kinda been discussed around here in the past, so I'm just going to post a sort of glossed-over summary here.

1. Sometimes the vocalization changes are just plain wierd. They probably have a reason, but it's more effort to find out why than it is to just accept that one abnormality (kind of like why is goose -> geese but not moose -> meese).

2. The changes happen for ease of pronounciation.

Some basic rules that will swing you through most of the time...

An 'n' sound before p, b, or m will change to an 'm' sound. ie. ganbatte = gambatte

'f' and 'h' will often become their voiced partners 'b' or 'p' in the middle of words, depending on what comes before it.

n+f/h will almost always become "mpp"

Many phoneme changes tend to happen after the r-column characters. They go from unvoiced to voiced (add a dakuten).

I'm sorry this is pretty generic. But from all the different resources I have consulted (including this forum) the best conclusions I've heard were that there's no official rules for it, you just eventually learn by ear when a phoneme change happens, because it 'feels' more natural the more familiar you are.

[zengargoyle]

if you google for 'rendaku' you'll find quite a few papers on the subject. there has been alot of study in this area, a few general rules, some quite interesting observations, but as mandolin pointed out... no golden rule.

[SaigoNoBan]

Since I need to revise this too, this is what I remember about euphonic changes WITH NUMBERS:
(an euphonic change, as the others already mentioned, is to make the sounds easier and/or faster to pronounce
. French has a lot of these!)



1) It only affects the numbers いち-１、　さん-３、　ろく-6、はち-８、and　じゅう-１0

２）It only happens when one of the cyphers above is followed by a counter　（分、　本、　個、　千　etc.）　starting with sounds H, K　or S.　It doesn't work when a cypher follows.　For instance,　六諸ｪ　is　ろく　じゅう　はち、　NOT　ろく　じゅっぱち

３）　RULES


　”CHI”　+　H　--＞　PP；　Ex.　一分　is いっぷん　IPPUN；　八本　is　はっぽん　HAPPON
　　　”KU”　+　H　--＞　PP；　Ex.　六分　is ろっぷん　ROPPUN；　六百　is　ろっぴゃく　ROPPYAKU
　　　”JUU”　+　H　--＞　JUPP；　Ex.　助ｪ　is じゅっぷん　JUPPUN；　助C　is　じゅっぴき　JUPPIKI　（Note the vowel becomes short）
　　　”N”　+　H　--＞　MB/MPU；　Ex.　三分　is さんぷん　SAMPUN；　三杯　is　さんばい　SAMBAI

　　”CHI”　+　K　--＞　KK；　Ex.　一個　is いっこ　IKKO；　八階　is　はっかい　HAKKAI
　　　”KU”　+　K　--＞　KK；　Ex.　六個　is ろっこ　ROKKO；　六回　is　ろっかい　ROKKAI
　　　”JUU”　+　K　--＞　JUKK；　Ex.　曙ﾂ　is じゅっこ　JUKKO；　所K　is　じゅっかいJUKKAI　（Vowel gets short）

　　”CHI”　+　S　--＞　SS；　Ex.　一冊　いっさつ　ISSATSU；　八千　is　八千　HASSEN
　　”JUU”　+　S　--＞　JUSS；　Ex.　渚?@is じゅっさつ　JUSSATSU；　四渚ﾋ　is　四渚ﾋ　よんじゅっさい　YONJUSSAI　（Again, vowel gets short.　Remember it only applies when a counter follows, so 庶O　is じゅうさん　JUUSAN　as one would expect.）

Thank you for asking, I just needed to freshen up my memory on this too!:D

[mandolin]

That's awesome stuff, Saigon. doumo!

[h3lladvocate]

Wow thanks, that really clears things up for me. Thanks for all you help.