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confused by kudasai...

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confused by kudasai...

Postby Edvent » Mon 01.23.2006 5:23 pm

Well, I just learned that I have to build the te-form for adding "kudasai"

==> tabete kudasai - please eat

But now I got an explanation that...

..."ohairi kudasai" means --> please, step near

and

..."okake kudasai" means --> please sit down

once again my understanding is upsidedown.

Doesn't it have to be like this?

--> ...haite kudasai
and
--> ...kakete kudasai

maybe the polite "o" somehow is responsible for that...
I don't understand...please help
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RE: confused by kudasai...

Postby magma » Mon 01.23.2006 7:11 pm

Well, in addition to the -te kudasai pattern you just learned, there is also an o/go + premasu-stem + kudasai pattern used for very polite speech.

So basically, ohairi kudasai means exactly the same thing as haite kudasai, but sounds even more polite.

Watch out, though: not all verbs are used in this pattern, so don't go using it at random.
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RE: confused by kudasai...

Postby skrhgh3b » Mon 01.23.2006 7:13 pm

you'll notice that instead of the "te-form," those expressions use the "pre-masu" or "stem form" of verbs, which like the "te-form" acts as conjunctive. so, gramitically they're doing the same thing, but as some others have recently pointed out, the "pre-masu" or "stem form" is more "classical" or "literary" or "polite" than the "te-form."
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RE: confused by kudasai...

Postby Harisenbon » Tue 01.24.2006 2:58 am

also, one thing to be careful of is that you cannot mix and match the て form with the polite お when using ください.

for example
X お売ってください
O お売りください
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RE: confused by kudasai...

Postby ryuubu » Fri 01.27.2006 7:45 pm

I saw a thread about the pre-masu stem (as with ari) having an older usage much the same as the te form. Though I tend to think of pre-masu as a noun at most times... is that werid?
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RE: confused by kudasai...

Postby AJBryant » Sat 01.28.2006 2:19 am

Though I tend to think of pre-masu as a noun at most times... is that werid


Not at all. That's exactly what MAKES many nouns. ;)

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RE: confused by kudasai...

Postby JJ Gregarius » Sat 01.28.2006 3:18 am

Can such a masu-stem form take particles? For instance, could you use "okake kudasai" in a sentence that means, for the sake of argument, "Please sit down near the fireplace"?

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RE: confused by kudasai...

Postby richard99uk » Sat 01.28.2006 4:53 am

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think I'd ask someone sit down at a location. I would probably indicate it with body language and say something like 'koko o suwatte kudasai' or 'douzo o-suwatte kudasai'.

However, I don't see why you couldn't say, 'douzo, shokutaku ni suwatte kudasai'. (Sorry, I don't know fireplace off the top of my head).
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RE: confused by kudasai...

Postby Harisenbon » Sat 01.28.2006 10:02 am

JJ Gregarius wrote:
Can such a masu-stem form take particles? For instance, could you use "okake kudasai" in a sentence that means, for the sake of argument, "Please sit down near the fireplace"?


I don't see how おかけください is taking a particle, but it is indeed grammatically correct.
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RE: confused by kudasai...

Postby JJ Gregarius » Sat 01.28.2006 6:48 pm

Harisenbon, it appears I didn't explain my question well enough.
Let me modify richard99uk's example it to illustrate my point

Is there a form like 食卓(しょくたく)におかけください in Japanese, where おかけください takes the phrase 食卓に? From this conversation, it would seem that おかけ is a noun. I am asking whether おかけ can still take 食卓に, as if it were a verb, or if something else is going on?

As a wild guess, would 食卓のおかけください make sense?

BTW, I cannot find おかけ at all in online Japanese dictionaries. Is it assumed that I can derive it from, I believe, 懸ける? How do I figure out when I can make such deriviations? Would a good real Japanese dictionary have this information?
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RE: confused by kudasai...

Postby Harisenbon » Sat 01.28.2006 9:00 pm

Not all pre-masu forms are verbs. Especially with the honorific お you would not be able to add a の before it to make a SuperVerb (or something).

You should just say it as
食卓におかけください。
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RE: confused by kudasai...

Postby JJ Gregarius » Sat 01.28.2006 9:37 pm

Actually, the reason I would make the error *: 食卓のおかけください is because from this discussion, おかけ sounded like a noun.

So, 食卓におかけください is correct. I heard that the pre-masu stem has other uses.
Someone mentioned using pre-masu stems like the -te form. Could you use 食卓におかけ in a sentence that says "He sits down at the dining table and eats."?

Can anyone think of other uses of 食卓におかけく? Maybe this belongs in a new thread?
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RE: confused by kudasai...

Postby AJBryant » Sun 01.29.2006 11:50 am

Could you use 食卓におかけ in a sentence that says "He sits down at the dining table and eats."?


No, because the "お" is an honorific functioning as "YOU."

Can anyone think of other uses of 食卓におかけく? Maybe this belongs in a new thread?


I don't know what you're trying to do. There is no such thing as おかけく.

You're really making something very simple into something very complex.

おかけください Is just an ALTERNATE polite way to say かけてください. That's ALL it is.


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RE: confused by kudasai...

Postby Kamaruka » Sun 01.29.2006 11:55 am

i always thought kudasai means please. in japanese they usually say it at the end of their sentence, to get something or to geat someone and etc.;)
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RE: confused by kudasai...

Postby JJ Gregarius » Sun 01.29.2006 2:14 pm

I don't know what you're trying to do. There is no such thing as おかけく.

You're really making something very simple into something very complex.

おかけください Is just an ALTERNATE polite way to say かけてください. That's ALL it is.


Tony

Of course there is no such thing as おかけく -- that was a typo.

Assuredly there is such a thing as かけ, the pre-masu stem form, as we used it in おかけください. Pre-masu stems are used all the time in various other syntatical constructs as well. The trick seems to be finding out which pre-masu stem forms (there has to be a better way of saying this) are actually valid.

Maybe there is no such thing as おかけ, as the the お prefix might show up only when used with ください. That was what I was asking.

On the same track, I believe かけなくてください would mean "Please don't sit down." Is there a way using おかけ or anything similar to express this request?
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